#455 – Being a Likeable Badass – with Alison Fragale

Cherylanne Skolnicki:

I am Cherylanne Skolnicki, and this is Brilliant Balance the show. For those of us who still dare to want it all, who have big dreams and bold ambitions, I think we deserve to have a big, full life and the freedom to enjoy it. So let’s design our next chapter together for brilliance, not burnout. Each week I’ll bring ideas, insight, and a fresh perspective to keep you growing into a life that feels as good as it looks brilliant. Balance your life your way. Now let’s get started. Welcome back to the Brilliant Balance Show. Today’s guest is somebody whose work landed on my radar a number of years ago when her book Likable Badass first came out. And then she got on my radar again this year, um, through one of the best possible channels. My daughter, who, um, had the book recommended to her by I think a professor, she read it.

Then it was recommended by several mentors, and we were having a conversation one day and she’s like, mom, you need to talk to this woman. Why has she not been on the podcast? And she was right. This was a real miss on my part. So Dr. Alison Fragale is with us today. Um, and she is exceptional. She’s an organizational psychologist, uh, a nationally bestselling author. She’s an award-winning professor, and she’s one of those people who has the ability to make behavioral science feel like something your smartest friend is explaining to you over a glass of wine. And I immediately was reminded of Adam Grant, who not surprisingly is a collaborator of hers. Um, I was reminded of Katie Milkman, who if you’re a longtime listener of the pod, you’ve heard the interview with Katie. There are some similarities, um, of course, because they’re all behavioral psychologists.

So I really love, um, Alison’s book because what she does is ground her. The entire book is grounded in her own research in the work that she’s done as an academic, but then she’s translating into language that is broadly appealing and applicable to all of us mere mortals out here reading it. Um, she is highly distinguished, right? She has a BA in Mathematics and Economics from Dartmouth, um, a PhD in organizational behavior from the Stanford Graduate School of Business. And before she became an academic, she spent some time at McKinsey, which as you’ll hear, is actually part of the origin story of why she ended up studying people for a living. She writes about that in the book as well. She’s been a tenured professor at the University of North Carolina, um, since 2004. She teaches negotiation and leadership to undergraduates, MBAs, and executives there.

And her research is on status, power, and influence. Three things that I think we all could stand to learn more about. Um, she’s appeared in all the places, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, the Financial Times and More. And we are mostly talking today about her book, likable Badass, how Women Get the Success They Deserve. And the book is really the culmination of decades of asking a question that every woman in a professional setting, probably in a personal setting, has bumped into, which is, how can you be warm and ambitious at the same time without sacrificing one for the other? And the answer, as it turns out, is backed by science and it has a name. So, without further ado, let me introduce you to Dr. Alison Regale. All right, so Alison, welcome to The Brilliant Balance Show.

Dr. Alison Fragale:

Thanks for having me.

CS:

I wanna start today with sort of the very beginning. Um, one of the things that I enjoy most about your book, and I’ve read it twice now, is the level of self-awareness and humor. And we get this little, like peek behind the scenes at what you’re like in real life. And what I would love to hear about is what Little Alison was like? Like what, there’s, there’s a part in the book where you say, my tendency would always be on the side of more assertive rather than less. And I wonder how early that showed up.

AF:

Oh, I’m sure very early. Um, uh, the person who really should be representing this on my podcast is my father who has lots of opinions about this <laugh>. Um, uh, two things I remember my dad telling me as a kid, which, which seemed very false at the time, but now in retrospect, I’m like, oh, that’s probably right, as he said, everything’s either black or white with you. There is no gray, which I think is still accurate and your mouth is gonna get you in a lot of trouble one day. And I was like, oh, okay. So, um, I’m a, you know, I’m a, I’m an Italian first born daughter and granddaughter on both sides. Like if you ever see the Instagram beams about the first born, everything, like that’s so me. Um, so I was, I had no problems with assertiveness for sure. However, I mean, when I think back about this, I’ve told this story not in the book, but in a couple of places that when I was a kid, I grew up, I was born in the seventies and I started school a little bit young for my grade.

Like I was kind of on the cusp. Whereas today I had my October birthday, I would be a year behind where I ultimately was. But then everything was like, you know, negotiable wild west. Yeah, whatever, right? You could just make a call and it’s fine. So I started school and my dad thought that I was ready academically. I was, I’m not a tall adult, but I was a tall kid. And so he felt like I was physically big enough. I certainly was intellectually ready. But he did have this concern that if you were too young, you would never be able to make friends and that socially you would be ostracized. Like I think he had this very vision that I was gonna go to college when I was nine, which is not at all gonna happen in any event because of that. I didn’t get a typical lecture that many parents give their kids like, you need to be reading, you need to be studying, you need to make sure you’re doing well in school.

They weren’t worried about that. My dad was really worried I wasn’t gonna be able to make friends. I was gonna be too young. I wasn’t gonna be able to find, uh, you know, and, and fit in. So I got lectures from a very young age about making sure I was nice to people and making sure that I was friendly and I could make friends. And I was confused at the time. I was like, of course I’m friendly. Why wouldn’t I make friends? But, without creating a validation seeking paranoia, it did make me aware in a way that I think has always been very productive . Okay, well how are people reacting to me and am I giving to them what I wanna give to them? And am I being nice to them and good to them? And do they see that? And so I think, ’cause I got those early lectures when I was five, it helped raise me with a, like a concern for my audience. That is a lot of the things I now talk about as a psychologist.

CS:

Yes. Okay. First of all, I think we may have been separated at birth <laugh>. There are definitely parallels we can unpack after this recording,

AF:

I’ll take that.

CS:

But one of the things that’s so interesting is I got that same lecture about people who aren’t going to like you. And what’s so interesting is how that seed, that little tiny seed that got planted really early on actually I think gave me one of my greatest gifts, which was the intentionality around dialing up warmth, which I don’t know that I would’ve had otherwise. Yes. So as we get into the sort of the paradigm in the book of what makes a likable badass, I think we both got handed the same sort of cheat code really early that, uh, I think has served me really well throughout my life.

AF:

Yeah, same. And I could, I could totally en envision a scenario in which that message given to a kid, particularly a young girl, could have gone very, it has a dark

CS:

Side. Yeah.

AF:

Yeah. But in my case, it, it really didn’t, it made me very thoughtful about trying to show up and, and making sure that I did care about people and making sure I was letting that show.

CS:

Yeah. So long before you were a researcher and had a model for this, you were living it out. Like this was really something that you lived first. At what point in your life did you really start having practical experience? And we’re gonna work our way up to like, what is a likable badass and the definition, but when did you start noticing that this assertiveness wasn’t enough? Like in your own personal lived experience, um, and that there was something about needing to balance that, like confidence with connection?

AF:

So, um, there were a couple of things. One, before I become an academic, I work as a management consultant. Yes. And one really interesting thing about being a consultant that no one tells you because no one would take the job, is you realize that if you work in consulting, no one will ever really report to you. Like you all have your team, but you are mainly in client service, right? So you spend your whole life serving other people and

CS:

They don’t have to do what you say. They don’t have to do what

AF:

You say. And the thing about consulting is no one likes you ever, like I said, there’s a reason they make movies about the consultants coming because people see them as outsiders, change agents, nuisances, all these things. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I did not expect psychologically how difficult this job was gonna be at an interpersonal level. Um, but I noticed that, uh, you know, one of the real strengths that I had that baffled some of my male colleagues who were very awkward was I was good at making friends with people. I’m like, these people do not have to work with us. Like, the only way they’re gonna work with us is if they like us. And you can’t really threaten them like, Hey, your CEO hired us or else they don’t care. So I was really good at a young age. I was, I was not intimidating.

Um, you know, they didn’t really report to me. And I was good at basically going around these clients and figuring out who the people we needed help from. How do I actually build a relationship with them? And I really liked doing that. And so I, I made friends and then everyone was like, oh, I have Alison ask them ’cause they like Alison <laugh>. And so without any of that language, I realized right. That, that being liked is a major source of influence that that’s right. Now I understand that as a psychologist, but we do things for people we like. Right? That’s why, you know, I see this happen with my, my young kids, right? You have like the little crush on the person at school and next thing you know, like you are, you know, you know, doing things for them or being helpful or accommodating in ways that you wouldn’t for other people.

Like, we do this all the time. There’s a reason that lemon Kids’ Lemonade stands are successful. Not ’cause anyone needs some minute maid lemonade. They don’t, but they like them and they wanna be nice to them. Yes. It’s a big source of influence. So, um, so I started seeing that, that kind of stuff like pop up and then, then when I really, when I finally decided I’m gonna be an academic, I get to graduate school, I’m very fortunate that I have this, um, academic mentor who I do talk about in the book. Yes. And she was really good at actually being able to articulate because she’s a psychologist. Like, this is how this works. Yes, Alison, you’re gonna need a tremendous amount of things from people in this field to be successful. And a lot of the things that are critical, like in order to get a job as a professor, you have to have people make introductions.

You have to have people write recommendation letters for you. And she said, guess what, Alison? All of those things are favors. She’s like, you don’t see it like that right now, but the person who has to recommend you gets nothing for recommending you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Other than the joy of trying to help you out. Well, you’re not gonna feel that joy unless that’s a person who has done something for you. So your job right now when you are new is you are just essentially going to add to the bank balances of as many people as you can because you are gonna need them all one day. And, um, without, and without it being, um, like turning it into anything that was inauthentic. Right. Or transactional. It’s just like, you have to understand that you will not be successful unless some people go out of their way to help you.

Well think about how, what would make someone go out of their way to help you. And so that also created in my academic career, just a culture of being given not to everybody. Like there were definitely jerks and people to be avoided and people who would take advantage and et cetera. But figuring out pretty quickly, right, who are the good people? Who are the people where you’re gonna give them to? But then when you come to them one day and say, Hey, now I, now I need to, you know, to, to get the payback, they’re gonna say, of course Alison, we would love to help you out. This she

CS:

Was the person. Maggie. Maggie, that’s

AF:

Maggie. Yeah. Did, did she, so would

CS:

You say she modeled it in addition to teaching it? Mm-hmm. That she was somebody who you observed it in

AF:

100%. I mean, she was really, I mean she, what she’s brilliant at more than any, she’s a brilliant academic, but really she’s a master of reciprocity. She gives more than anyone I’ve seen, but she also expects to collect. Yeah. And people recognize Right. You weren’t going to be in a relationship with her where she would constantly give to you and then you, she, you weren’t gonna give anything in exchange that was not gonna last, last very long. And she’s very, very, very beloved. She has a very big network. But the way she built her network was by being very giving, but then also utilizing the network,

CS:

Not being afraid. Yeah.

AF:

You’re gonna support me as well. And I do think for women, a lot of times there’s the giving, they’ve mastered the giving, but the idea of I’m never gonna collect, I’m never gonna call in anything. Then you’ve, you’ve built this beautiful resource to support your life, but you’re afraid to use it.

CS:

Yeah. Or you’re potentially depleted because you’re generously giving, generously giving, you don’t know how to ask for anything in return. And so it feels really one sided, which I think is kind of a path to resentment over time. Absolutely. Am I always the one giving and never getting, well, you’re not asking. Right. You had an even earlier model of this in your grandmother, and I had this question later, but this is a great time to talk about Marge,

AF:

My grandmothers. Yeah. So I mean, we’ve, everyone, like when I say to people that people often ask me like, who are your favorite likable, bad asses? And I would say, I could give you names of famous people, but really to me, the cool stories, not just mine, but the ones from other people are the non-famous people. Yes. Like my next door neighbor, my grandmother, my third grade music teacher, the people who are getting it done, because I said that’s the deal is that if everyday people of all different walks of life, education, et cetera, can master these things, then we can all master them. So my grandmother, um, she was just like a, a, a firecracker. She had a sign in her kitchen. I don’t think this made it into the book, but the sign in the kitchen said, I am 51% sweetheart, 49%, don’t push it.

CS:

I love it.

AF:

Right. And I was like, exactly. So it was warm and assertive, right? Yes. Um, but what I thought she was, I was, I admired her because she had no money, no education. She was a hairdresser. Um, she, uh, you know, came, didn’t she come, she, she’s from a German family. She spoke English, but unlike her parents, her older siblings didn’t. Um, so she doesn’t come with all the advantages and privilege that certainly I, by the time I come and

CS:

She doesn’t have a lot of the traditional markers of power, which is what I love about her story. Like she figures out how to build status without having power. Yeah.

AF:

She’s not rich, she’s not educated. Right. But what she does is she’s really good at building authentic relationships in her own way. Um, and she would do it with the things that she cared about. Like, and, and so I said like my grandmother liked to smoke, drink, and play poker. And a lot of the ways she made friends was like around one of those types of things. And she made friends and then so that she was, you know, always like, come to my house, you know, I’ll host the card game, whatever she gave in the ways that she could give. But then she also collected things that mattered to her. Her, and, and you know, she’s very different. She was extremely active politically in local politics. And for her, the way all the favors she wanted to call in, or the way she wanted to use her relationships was, she thought that there were like good guys and bad guys in politics and the good guys needed to win. And so you were gonna support the good guy. And I said I spent time, like I wasn’t a very political person, but I went to these phone banks, you know, this is all pre-internet right. Back in when I’m calling people to tell them to come out and vote the next day. Right. As were all her other friends who also were, were not there because they were as deeply invested as she was. They were invested in her. Yes.

CS:

They love the story about the woman who shows up. Like, I don’t know where I’m supposed to go. I’m just here. ’cause she told me to come, she wanted me to be here. It’s so great. Yeah.

AF:

And I was like, I get it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So what I like, like, you know, she, I realize only, so honestly, honestly, after she passed away, she passed away when I was 20 years old. But like realizing what a masterful model I had as a kid. And I think when you’re a kid, you don’t, you take your immediate family a lot for granted, right? You’re just like, these are those yahoos I happen to be related to. But then you look back, you’re like, oh, wow. Like different people had a really great skillset that they modeled. And I think what I was most impressed by was, one, she built her relationships really authentically mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and two, that she was actually willing to use those relationships for things that mattered to her. And that there was a lot of reciprocity in that. So yeah, I got to see it in all these ways, but again, I didn’t have a language for any of this stuff at the time. Yes. Right. I only put it together much later. But like all of us, we’re all psychologists, we’re all trying to figure out people and figure out the world. Um,

CS:

And that’s why I started there because I do think for everyone, there’s this observational lens that we have in the world. And if you’re curious and if you’re thoughtful and if you’re reflective, you sort of start to draw your own conclusions. You don’t always have language or academic language or study to back it up, but like, you know what you know Right. You know what your lived experience is, and you have seen it in yourself. You had seen it in, you know, at McKinsey, you had seen it in your grandmother. And then these pieces start to thread together when you get to graduate school. And then it starts to kind of become an area of study and ultimately the model that’s in the book. So I want you to unpack the model of what is a likable badass, what are these two vectors? What is the quadrant we’re trying to be in? Um, and how do we get there?

AF:

Okay. So to answer that, the fundamental concept that’s in this book is the idea of status. And our status. One, a person’s status is the extent to which they’re respected and admired by other people. So status turns out to be really important to our quality of life. It’s something we see from all the science. All human beings seek status around the world in their own ways. We all care deeply about being respected and valued. When we feel undervalued or disrespected. It’s a terrible feeling. And we take notice. Um, we are, um, and we’re highly motivated to pay attention to our status and to, to achieve it. So I have multiple kids and I always say, um, if you’ve ever had that experience either as a child or a parent, where you cut the kids, let’s say three pieces of cake, and they will judge that one of those pieces is a millimeter bigger than the other piece, and they are losing their minds.

Right? That’s not fair. Why do you get that? And you’re like, I can’t even see what you’re talking about. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And you’re so upset about it and you’re like, what, what is wrong with you? You’re not grateful, you’re you, whatever. It’s all status. It’s basically all seen as a signal of who’s valuable. Yes. And it’s not really about the millimeter of cake, it’s about who matters. So this is a really important variable to not just our life satisfaction, but also our success and advancement. Because if people do not respect you, you cannot influence them. No one listens to people they don’t respect. It’s also really hard for you to get the other thing that I talk about in the book, which is power, which is to be in charge of resources. So if you wanna be promoted, if you wanna be paid, you know, if you wanna have decision, authority, all that kind of stuff, you, no one’s gonna allow you to do that if they don’t respect you. So this,

CS:

And I think that’s a really like not a well understood thought that status precedes

AF:

Once power. Once you say it, they get it. Once you say it, people are like, yeah, I guess that makes sense. People don’t respect me, they’re not giving me the stuff. But when we behave it in our lives, we often don’t think that we’re just like, I just need to get the,

CS:

There’s a lot of attempts to get power to earn status versus reverting it. Totally. Yeah,

AF:

That’s right. Oh, as soon as I have this title or this achievement, everyone will respect me, which could happen. But it ends up being a much harder path. So, this answer to your question is, I write this book to shine a spotlight on this really important, but somewhat poorly understood variable status, likable, badass. Where that comes in is, that’s my catchy term for the science of how status judgments get made. So what happens is, you today, me, today, we, you live your life. You encounter people, you’ve worked with people today, you’ve exchanged emails, you’ve probably been online with people, you’ve scrolled your social media and saw a few people there. And as every time we encounter a person, your brain is updated. Okay, what do I think about that person? And everyone’s doing that to you too. Well, the judgments we make about people are not random and all over the place.

We’re, everybody is always trying to figure out the same two things, which are the same things people wanna know about us. The first thing we always wanna understand about a human being is what are your intentions, essentially? Are you a friend or are you a foe right now? Obviously I don’t wanna be involved with anybody who is going to make my life worse or is a threat to me. Whether that is a threat to my physical safety, a threat to my happiness, a threat to my, um, uh, my success at work. I am looking for people who are going to make my life better. Or what does that mean? It means you have qualities that are gonna benefit me. Likable is one, right? Um, agreeable, uh, helpful, sincere, honest people who have these qualities. The beneficiary is, is everyone else, right? Yes. So that’s the first thing we try to figure out.

Um, so on the cover, I call it likable. In psychology, we often talk about it as warm and cold, like warm orientation toward other people. So the second, so the second thing I need to figure out is once I know your intentions are good, you’re the kind of person who cares, who wants to be helpful, then the second thing I need to figure out is, well, do you have the capacity or the ability to be helpful? Because it’s nice to have good intentions, but if you’re completely incompetent or inept, <laugh>, you’re still not gonna do anything. Not

CS:

Very useful, right?

AF:

So now I need to know, are you organized, competent, capable, persistent, decisive, these qualities where I’m like, oh, a person who has those qualities, that’s someone who’s gonna deliver results, get stuff done no matter what it is. And in psychology, we often talk about that as a dimension of assertiveness. And so on the cover of the book, I just translate those two dimensions into something catchier that non-academics would resonate with likable, badass. You could

CS:

Have said warm, assertive, but it doesn’t sell books, right?

AF:

No. If I really wanted to not sell books, I could have called it what it’s actually called in psychology, which is the interpersonal circumplex of person perception. That is a book that no one would ever read, no

CS:

One would buy exactly, no

AF:

One would buy. So, but whaley the science is okay, how do you, because people think, well, wait a second, I don’t control what other people think of me, right? It’s like, no, you don’t control it. You influence, but you influence it greatly, right? If you show up one day and you yell at somebody, you have influenced what they think about you, they are much less likely to enjoy being around you. So we influence what people think about us all the time. And if you understand how their brains are paying, what their brains are paying attention to, then you have better information to think, okay, how can I influence you in a way that you can see me, the way I see myself, and see me the way I want to be seen as a very caring and very capable person? And I can put those signals out there so that your brain gets ’em.

So that’s the whole idea, is this is a status as a communication act where what I am trying to signal to you is these two things I care and I’m capable, and the better a job I do signaling. And the more you believe it, then what I get in exchange from you is that, is that respect, which is going to be valuable for me. You’re much more likely to trust me, to be influenced by me, to wanna be in a relationship with me, to help me and, and, and promote me to other people. A variety of good things.

CS:

And are we using respect, status, and influence? Sort of, not necessarily interchangeably, but like as a cluster of terms,

AF:

I’m using respect and status interchangeably for sure. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because that’s what status really is that the core of it, it is respect, influence is a downstream consequence of

CS:

It.

AF:

Okay? So one, when you have status slash respect, then one positive outcome that can come from that is you will be more influential. Perfect. So it is source of your,

CS:

Now here’s where it gets magical in the book, I think, is that everyone listening is going, got it. Of course, I want that. How on earth do I get that right? If I self-assess and say, I don’t have that, I don’t have one of those two things, I’m either not seen as particularly warm, likable, or I’m not seen as particularly capable or confident or assertive, all that, those competence attributes, what am I gonna do to kind of get both? Because if I put this on a two by two, I, there’s only one quadrant I really wanna be in. Right? Okay. And so can I think, first of all, let’s talk about what happens if you’re high warmth, low assertiveness, right? You’re likable but not seen as a badass. How do people treat those people? Because I think a lot of women unfortunately, end up in this camp and come to me, to me to talk about it, right? Did you know that beyond hosting this podcast, I also directly support women leaders at the intersection of work and life As a member of bold, you get direct access to me, the women on my team, and a peer group of exceptional women who are rewriting the rules and redefining what it means to have it all together. Go to brilliant balance.com/bold to learn more and apply for your spot today.

AF:

Sure, for sure. So, here’s the deal. You can, in some cases, be successful, gaining respect of your audience, gaining status by just being one or the other. But obviously the magic combination, the no fail combination is gonna be to be seen as both, which is also how we want to be seen. When you give people a choice of how you want to be perceived, everyone always picks that category. Yes, I am caring and I am capable. I want people to see me that way. Okay? So if you end up in the very warm but very submissive category, then you’re well-liked, you’re not threatening to anybody. But that’s when you start to get the feedback that people don’t think you have enough presence or confidence, or they don’t really trust your judgment on those kinds of things. And that can end up being, uh, you know, one, it feels bad ’cause it’s inaccurate. And two, it also ends up being problematic for your power attainment and advancement to be able to, um, to get more responsibility, to be able to have more influence, to be able to be the voice in the room that people, people listen to. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and when you get the other one, which is people see you as super assertive and not very warm, we

CS:

Knows we call that ones

AF:

Yes. Right? Like we, we, but that’s where a, a agree, um, assertive becomes aggressive, and then you get the, you’re too much, right? You’re too opinionated, all of those things. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So those are problematic. That doesn’t mean you couldn’t be successful being in either of those, but neither one feels accurate because it’s not true about you. And neither of them is as guaranteed to be good for you is obviously being seen as bad.

CS:

And I think both of those extremes cause fear. Like if you’re somebody who, you know, you’re highly developed in warmth, but you’re underdeveloped in assertiveness, you are afraid of what happens if I become more assertive, I’m afraid I’m gonna get labeled a. I’m afraid I’m, people aren’t gonna like me. Like, there’s this sense that you will have to trade down in the one you already have in order to get more of the other. And vice versa, if you’re like, I know I’m really competent, but if I dial up warmth, people aren’t gonna take me seriously. And you know, that’s a fallacy that comes out loud and clear in the book, but I think that’s the supposition that people are operating under that’s kind of keeping them paralyzed. So the breakthrough is, I think what I understood it to be is to dial them up to match, like kind of the higher your assertiveness, the higher your warmth is gonna have to be to, to offset.

AF:

Exactly. So, the idea is there are two independent dimensions and therefore you can be, um, playing up to both of them at the same time. Now, is that always as easy for women to do as men? No. That’s why I wrote this book for women, even though status applies to everybody, right? I did that because I’m recognizing the realities that it’s harder for some people than others. That part I can’t fix. But what I can do is make it feel way easier and, and very authentic for each individual to say, uh, this is me. So yes, the way to navigate forward, I would say is add, don’t subtract. So if you’ve been in that category where you’ve gotten the feedback like you’re too nice, or you’re too sweet, or you’re too opinionated, you’re too much, then the natural tendency is, oh, I should be less nice.

Be, I’ll dial it down. Right? Less opinionated, I’m gonna dial it down. And there’s two problems with that. One is it leads to burnout. Um, be, and, and you know, just, um, lack of authenticity to feel like I have to now wear a mask. I have to be something other than I naturally wanna be. Um, but the other thing is it’s not that effective. So I Nice is in my opinion, the best example I’d say, look, when people tell you you’re too nice, first of all, that’s not actually what they’re telling you because do you ever really think that someone’s giving you the feedback?

CS:

Don’t think it is possible to be too nice to be mean, right?

AF:

You’re just to be no. When they’re telling you they’re, you’re too nice. What they’re saying is, I have doubts about this other dimension. That’s right. Could you give people tough feedback? Could you hold people accountable? That’s right. Could you drive the results? That’s all hidden under two. Nice. Because that’s right. People aren’t psychologists, so they don’t know how to say I’m doubting your assertiveness. So when you get that too much of anything, feedback I say to people, add, don’t subtract. What they’re telling you is you’re doing really well on one dimension. Mm-hmm. So that’s a win, even though,

CS:

But I need more evidence of this other of

AF:

The other. Mm-hmm. So even though the feedback might feel biased and hurtful and global and all the bad things, like, I’m getting this information that they’re saying, this one’s good. If someone tells you you’re too opinionated or whatever, or too aggressive, you’re like, I’ve got an assertive check. Now how do I lean into the other dimension and, um, indicate to people, right, either that I really care if I’m trying to dial up the warmth or that I’m really capable without

CS:

Being dies, without it coming across as fake, which I think is the art form part of this. Like,

AF:

Well, this is why I tell people, I say, look, if you don’t care about anyone but yourself and you’re not good at anything, then showing up this way will be fake.

CS:

You’re in trouble anyhow.

AF:

Yeah. But if you care or, and you know what you’re doing, then, uh, like leaning into those things is the most authentic thing you can do. Absolutely. So yes, you have to find your way, but there’s always a way. So, I mean, in the, I’ll, I do talk about this in the book, but I’ll say it quickly. I’m a bad smiler and I came to learn this about myself and I tried to be a better smiler and I can’t really, but here’s the deal. If a person walks into a room and they are always frowning or scowling, it is not a crazy thing for the people in that room to think that person’s probably not very approachable. They don’t like me, they don’t wanna be here. Now in my case, none of those things are true. Right? I just don’t have a face that works that way.

Right? So when I recognize that, oh, if I have a bad expression on my face, people will draw a conclusion about me. That’s false, but it’s logical that they’re doing it. Yes. Well, now here’s where the authenticity comes in. I would like to smile better, but I can’t. So for me to walk around like a fake smile feels very fake and inauthentic. But just because I’m not good at smiling doesn’t mean I don’t legitimately care about other people. I care deeply. So now the idea of figuring out the art of it is, well, how do I like to show people that? Right? So I’m bad at smiling, but I’m really good at words. Like I’m a great complimenter. I’m really good at making people feel seen and appreciated. I use all the tools I have including my network and my social media to shout people out and to, you know, write them nice notes of thanks and, and to help people and to take time out of my day to actually make somebody’s life better. I do a lot of things that show I’m caring. Just smiling’s not in that category. But I Alison, that’s

CS:

So good. Like, just give yourself a second on that because so many women have been told to smile more specifically, right? Yes. If you just think about that array of ideas that you just rattled off, ’cause you’ve done it a thousand times of ways that you can communicate kindness, warmth, approachability, that have nothing to do with changing your face into a shape it doesn’t wanna go into Right. Thousands of, and the book y’all is full of them. There are so many very practical, um, tactics and strategies that you can use to convey more assertiveness or more warmth throughout the book. So you’re definitely gonna wanna get all of them, but I think that’s such a great example of you don’t have to make something up that doesn’t work for you. You find a way that’s aligned for you.

AF:

Exactly. And I also think what it means is when we get feedback, we need to be curious about it. You can be both annoyed and curious. Yeah. So if someone says something to you, you should smile more. If you wanna be annoyed about that, fine. But what I always say is, that person probably didn’t get up today just trying to hurt you. They’re trying to tell you something, but guess what? They’re not psychologists. They don’t have the perfect vocabulary for it. So they’re saying something and to figure out, okay, you didn’t say it well and you didn’t say it kindly, but what are you trying to tell me? And what you’re trying to tell me is, I am not seeing the signals from you, that you care. And one of the, um, best pieces of advice I repeat a lot came from Kim Scott, the woman who wrote Radical Candor, which is a great book on leadership. But what she said, which is so true, is that behavior is not judged; this behavior is judged at the recipient’s ear, not the speaker’s mouth. And we know this, right? The fact that your intent was good, doesn’t matter if that’s not how your audience took it.

CS:

Right?

AF:

Welcome to parenting. Right? Exactly. Literally you show up every day with nothing but the best of intent and your audience is like, Nope, you didn’t do that. Well, you didn’t do that well. And that’s all that matters. So the idea of thinking about, um, if my audience is telling me something’s not hitting them, that is annoying and frustrating because no one could care more than I do. Like, and I’m working so hard, but it’s information to say, okay, let me give you a different signal. Let me experiment with this because I do really care. So I’ll be able to get there.

CS:

I love that this work applies so universally. Like my audience is a lot of women, I’m gonna say their thirties, forties, fifties. That’s definitely the audience I’ve shared with you. My daughter and her cohort are really enamored with your work. They’re in their early twenties. Are there differences in how these strategies play out based on where you are in your career, in your life? Because I think my assumption is that your default status may be different in those life stages. And so does it change the way you would coach somebody to apply the strategies?

AF:

Like a bit, but so sometimes, you know, we might walk into a room with more signals of our status than others. So, you know, biological age for example, tends to be for women coline, right? When you’re really young, people might assume you’re not as capable when you’re older, at the end people assume you’re not as capable. And in the middle is when you tend to get, you know, assumptions of, of capability, right? Often you’re, you’re, you have a, you might have a position that connotes capability, um, you know, uh, you have power, um, you have some biological age that says you, you’ve learned through experience, you know what you’re doing, et cetera. So there’s no doubt that when I walk into a room at 50, people might ascribe status to me immediately through things I’ve accomplished or things like that, that they wouldn’t have when I was starting my career, for sure.

But at the end of the day, the challenge for each of us is the same, which is we need to be very cognizant of what signals we are sending to our audience and to make sure we are sending to the audiences we care about enough signals that say that these two things are true. I’m very likable and I’m very, very badass. Most of the signals that people care about are not the ones we think they’re gonna care about. Like the idea that, um, you know, and I’m sure you have this too, like I have so many people because I have a PhD, they’re, they’re like, I really feel like I need a PhD because I wanna go into this field and people will respect me and my credentials if I have a PhD. I’m like, there’s some truth to that. Like I’m more likely to take in medical advice from somebody who’s a medical doctor.

So, sure. At the same time, I think what you’re saying is, I really don’t feel like I have this respect and the way I’m gonna do it is I’m going to put another line on my resume. But at the end of the day, when we think about people we respect and value, we don’t just respect resumes, we respect human beings. Who are able to add value to our lives and show us that they, they really care about us. So yes, can it look different? Sure. But I always tell people, wherever you sit, you have the ability to hit on both of those. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I, a story that I tell a lot when I give talks is about my, my oldest son is 17, but when he was 15, he made an introduction. He went to a leadership program or a sports management program, they had a leadership facilitator. And he texts me after the first night of the program and says, mom, there’s a speaker here who I think does what you do, can I introduce you? And I was like, sure, honey, that’d be nice. And of course he’s 15. So he texts me

CS:

Back, you’re like a star student, he’s doing exactly what you want.

AF:

But he texts me back and he goes, how do I do that? And I, he doesn’t do it. So he writes on a piece of paper, my name, my phone number, my email, and long story short, he introduces me to this professor and we end up meeting and we totally hit it off and we have now become friends and stayed in touch, et cetera. So he’s 15 years old and he was able to execute a really good status building move, which as I always say, one of the best ways to build status is you’re brand new in a relationship. You don’t need anything from this person, but you are able to use whatever talents you have to make their life better off. And in this case, the talent that he had was just that he happened to have a relationship and know somebody that’s his mom that could have value to the other person.

So he’s gonna make the intro for our benefit, not for his benefit, but then that reflects well on him. So at every stage of life when I’m talking to somebody or coaching them, I’m always like, you’re here. Like yeah, 30 years from now you’ll be in a different spot, but we’re not waiting 30 years for respect. That’s right. Right. You can build respect at 10, at 15, at 20, at 25 by picking up your head, looking out to your audience and saying, what can I do that will help make their lives better? One of the things I do talk about in the book is a lot of people who, who are brand new in their career, like entry level, being able to distinguish themselves from the very start. Yeah. Not by having some crazy resume or some super secret hidden talent, it’s just that they paid attention to what people needed and they were like, I’m gonna help you out with that. And that’s really where it starts. So everybody, yes, it looks different, but it doesn’t mean that some people can do it and some people can’t.

CS:

There’s a little bit of reciprocity that’s underneath that that is just, it’s, it is the psychological principle, right? Like, because you’ve done something generous for them, they’re more inclined to do something back for you. They think more highly of you. Like there it’s really impossible to turn that off when it happens. And I think what you say over and over again in the book is like, our network really does matter. I think women have like the plague when they think about the word network, they hate it. There’s a lot of resistance to the term networking as a verb. You have two practices that you lay out in the book that you do regularly. I dunno if you still do them, but I was fascinated by that. It seems so simple and so diligent to do it every day. Can you share what those are? This is about a LinkedIn connection with somebody Oh yeah. And a text to somebody every day. Oh yeah.

AF:

So, um, I will, yes, I will tell you those too. And I, but I’m gonna step back for one second. Sure. And say, um, the idea about giving, I’m a big proponent though of we need to have some strategic giving because, because haphazard I’ll just do more and do more and do more and do more for people is a very common, uh, female tendency that we give so much, but indiscriminately. Yes. And the idea is I want giving that’s easy for you, that’s valuable for your audience. And what makes it valuable for your audience is it feels like something that somebody else couldn’t provide just as easily. And that’s why the idea I say like if you, when you buy somebody’s coffee and you do that because it’s a polite thing to do, it is, but it’s so forgettable versus if I make an introduction or I recommend to you a book or an article I read that is specifically, um, addressing a problem that you just told me you’re facing at work or an area where you want to grow, next thing you know I’m a wealth of information.

Yes. I’m not just a source of $3 coffee, which you could have bought for yourself. Yes. So that is the key about giving the practices. I, I’m a huge proponent of you have to experiment and try new things, but you also shouldn’t stick with things that feel too hard. You need to find easy ways to be giving. And so things like, um, for me, uh, a couple of things. One is like having daily practices that are two minutes or less. So I like to get up, I like to get up early in the morning before the sun is up. I drink my coffee, I’m often going to scroll through social media. So rather than put a brick on my phone and be like, you are forbidden to scroll social media, I just try to turn the scroll into something that’s positive, which is that there’s people that I have had in my mind that I either wanna connect or reconnect with. And so I try to, every time I open the platform is to say, okay, I’m just gonna send either a quick message or a connection or a comment to somebody. And if you do that one minute a day, even half the days of the year, it’s a lot of points of contact.

CS:

It’s

AF:

The other one is identifying dead spots on my calendar and using them from connection. So what do I often do when I’m sitting there? Can’t do anything better. Scrolling my phone. So I’ve identified for myself three spots where I can’t really do much else. Standing at a gate, waiting to board an airplane sitting in the back of a taxi or an Uber and sitting somewhere in a car waiting to pick up one of my kids. Those three times I can’t do anything substantive. I’m just standing there. I’m, you know, playing Candy Crush. I’m waiting for the, for the, uh, you know, I’m scrolling social media. So I try to use those as points of connection in one of two ways. Either. Um, if I know that those things are happening, like know you, you often will know when you’re probably gonna be standing at an airplane gate, airplane gate boarding.

I will offer up those times to help people. If someone needs my advice or my assistance, I’ll be like, Hey, why don’t you call me at about this time? Chances are I’m just gonna be standing there with nothing else to do. So therefore I could give my very valuable time. But I’m giving it not at a prime thinking deep work time, but I’m giving it at a time that wouldn’t be used for anything else and therefore still building that relationship. Or I will get on my phone and I will take my phone and I will scroll my finger down like this on my text pages. ’cause anyone who has four finger scrolls down on your text is somebody you haven’t texted in a while.

CS:

Yes.

AF:

Then you can bring who’s down there. Either I’ve gotta delete them ’cause I don’t talk to them anymore, or I could reconnect with them. That’s genius. And so simply by using like a couple minutes like that, then when the plane comes or when my kid gets in the car, then that’s over. And so I don’t live with any guilt anymore, at least about, oh, I should be doing this and I should be doing that. I just try to be really efficient and say, if you can just do one or two little things a day, yes. Those things add up over

CS:

Time with consistency. Yeah. That’s what I love.

AF:

A lot of generosity to a lot of connections.

CS:

Reclaiming those 10 minutes. I did a podcast a million years ago called, if you Give a Mom 10 minutes. And I was, and that’s what this is making me think about is taking these little dead zones and being like, what can you get done with that little window? And I really love using it to give somebody advice that they’re calling you for, because you don’t wanna give up at nine o’clock on a Tuesday. Like that’s prime time for your creativity. But to say, oh, I’m gonna be standing at a gate or in the car during this window, it’s a good time to call me. ” That’s a, that’s a great move. I love it. I love it. Um, any parting thoughts for this community? Anything that you hoped I would ask about today that I haven’t? Anything you wanna share with our listeners?

AF:

So one very specific practice that I think everyone will buy into. It has a lot of values. If you did only one thing, if thinking about this, I am intrigued by this idea of building my status. There’s a lot of things you can do, but if you did only one thing, the thing I would tell everybody to do is be an evangelical talker, up to the great work that people around you are doing. One, it is a joyous, beautiful way to live. It’s a lot of fun to shout out other people, to talk them up, to celebrate them however it is. In addition also one of the most strategic things you can do to build your own status. Because of this notion of reciprocity, which we talked about. Behavior is reciprocated. If you go into a building and you hold open a door for somebody, they’re gonna walk through it and then they are gonna stop and hold the next door open for you.

That’s how we operate. And the beauty of these things is when we are, we are first movers and we give the person can’t give it back. You’re not gonna open a door for somebody and they’re gonna say, no, no, no, I don’t wanna walk through it because then I would feel obligated to open the door. They walk through it, but then they do feel obligated, right? They’re like, I’ve gotta stop and open the door. So when we talk other people up, they’re gonna find out about it. And when they find out about it, the first thing their brain is gonna do is, oh my God, that’s so nice. And their brain is instantly gonna say, now I need to return the favor. So one of the best ways to get people to talk to you is to build your status and tell everybody they know how great you are and how capable and caring it is for you to do that first.

And the way that I do that is, again, I’m, I don’t like to-do lists. I mean, I have like, you know, papers and papers of to-do lists, but I’m not adding any more of this stuff to it. The way I do it is I just live my life. But invariably, every single day a positive thought about somebody is gonna pop into my head, right? And when that happens, I try very hard to find an outlet for that. Not to let it die in my head, to put it somewhere. Maybe it goes to them and I compliment them and I tell them specifically what they did that was so great and I build their confidence. Maybe I can make an introduction or I can send some praise to somebody else I know they care about. Sometimes I’ll use my social media to give somebody a public shout out. Those kinds of things. So if we, if everybody listening took only that practice and did it, it would one help you be an amazing ally and sponsor, which we all wanna be. But then it would also through reciprocity, be a very strategic action to build your own status.

CS:

I love it. I love it. I love that as like the parting thought because it’s something absolutely everyone can do. And by the way, you can do it right now. So if you’re listening, somebody just popped into your mind that you deserve, you know, they deserve a shout out, you can send a note to them, you can send a note about them to someone else. And you can actually put this into practice immediately, which I love. Alison, thank you for being with us today on this show. I’m gonna hold up your book here for the camera audience. Um, so the book is called Likable Badass. We’re gonna link it in the show notes. Definitely get a copy. If you have not already discovered this book, it is really on my top picks, um, list. I’ve recommended this to so many women in our community and beyond and it was really, really fun to get to talk to you today. So thanks for being with us.

AF:

Oh my gosh, my pleasure.