Episode #353 – Be Happier at Work with Aoife O’Brien

I am delighted that you are tuning in for today’s episode of Brilliant Balance. I first connected with Aoife O’Brien when she reached out to me via email. I think she had seen something about my work or the show. And once I realized how truly aligned our missions were, I knew I wanted to have her on the podcast. She is somebody who really knows that if you want to get the best out of employees, you need to put people first and create an environment where they can thrive. And this shift really results in a happier workplace, right? For everyone involved, honestly, for the employees and the managers. And it also ladders to increase productivity, engagement, and retention, which ultimately impact the bottom line.

So I think today, whether you are an employee or an employer, you’re going to find that Aoife is really committed to helping us create happier workplaces, something that I think we’re all ready to throw our support behind.

As background, she set up her organization, Happier at Work, in 2019 to really support organizations in their efforts to become more people focused. And she’s very clear that when you put people first, it is what leads to a happier work environment. And you’re going to hear the statistics on just how important this is given just how many people are truly unhappy at work.

Aoife brings a lot of professional background to this. You’ll hear her lovely brogue. She has a MSC in work and organizational behavior from Dublin City University. And she is a member of the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development. She has worked in research across a number of different global organizations prior to starting her own company. And I think we’re really lucky to have her with us today.

In this interview, we get into all the things. We definitely come at it from an individual’s perspective. What can you do personally? Where do you have a sense of agency if you are one of those high percentage of people who are not feeling happy at work? And also, What can you do if you are a leader in an organization that is trying to create a culture where people are positive and feel genuinely happy?

So without further ado, let me introduce you to Aoife O’Brien.

Cherylanne Skolnicki:
Well, Aoife, welcome to The Brilliant Balance Show. I am just delighted for this conversation. We have so many good questions to dig into today.

Aoife O’Brien:
Thank you so much, Cherylanne. It’s a pleasure to be here. And having recently discovered your podcast, I kind of just say what an honor it is to be invited to be a guest because I absolutely love it.

I think it’s so practical. It’s no nonsense. So much wisdom in there. So thank you so much. I appreciate it.

CS:
Oh, thank you for saying that. I love doing the show and it’s made even better when we have great guests, right? Solo episodes are one thing, but the energy of a conversation is just the best. So, all right, I’m going to start with a question that is really dear to my heart. You know that I am on a mission to redefine what it means to have it all. So what does having it all mean to you?

AO:
I think for me, it’s having a sense of freedom and a sense of peace. So I suppose if I think back to my corporate days, I didn’t feel that I had that great level of freedom, that I could come and go as I pleased, that I could work what hours I wanted, that I could choose the projects that I worked on. So I think for me,

It’s having a sense of freedom and getting to decide how you spend your time, because that’s what’s at the crux of everything, I think, really, isn’t it? It’s like how you spend your time day in, day out is how you’re going to look back on your life and say, and you’re never going to look back and say, I wish I worked longer hours, you’re going to look back and you’re going to think of the relationships that you built and what you did, the experiences that you had. And I think, for me, having it all is being able to look back and think I’m really proud and I’m really happy with how I spent my time.

CS:
I love it. And, you know, how we spend our days is how we spend our lives, right? And a lot of us are spending a lot of our days at work. So this is what was so appealing to me about your message and your work and what you’re bringing out into the world, which is really this notion of how can we find happiness at work, or at a minimum, how can we be a little bit happier when we’re at work? So I guess a good place to start is, are most people happy at work or not? What if you’re not?

AO:
No. And this is from research. I mean, this is from Gallup’s research. But if you think about if you’re not happy at work, you bring that to other relationships that you have. If you’re not happy at work,

It has an impact on your health. It has an impact on your home life. It has so many further reaching impacts that you don’t really consider or maybe you don’t think about if you’re getting really stressed at work. You’re just so all consumed by this one area of your entire life. What is that all about?

What if you know about that? Yeah. I think for me, we always have a choice. And if you think I have no choice, if you just shift your thinking, shift your language to I’m choosing this because it gives you that sense of control, it gives you that sense of agency. And I know you did an amazing episode all about the Goldilocks career and the reasons we stay. And it’s so insightful because we have so many reasons and so many excuses to stay in a place that we’re not unhappy. But if we can just shift our thinking and shift what we’re telling ourselves about why we stay, I’m choosing to stay here because insert reason here.

CS:
Insert reason. Right. The compensation, the flexibility, the location, The pension, whatever it happens to be. And it’s so interesting when I did that episode a long time ago, the insight, I just was having so many conversations with women who were like, well, it’s not great.

But it’s really not bad enough. And I don’t know where this narrative comes from, that we have to suffer sufficiently, right, before we give ourselves permission to make a change. And, you know, they always say, like, the pain of staying where you are has to outweigh the pain of getting to where you want to go, right? Before you’ll really move the lip. I get that. You have to sort of have sufficient pain, but that data is so stark to me, 85 % of people agreeing with the statement, like I’m just not happy at work, and yet not actively being in transition. There has to be pretty powerful forces holding us back and keeping us rooted. And one of them is definitely this sort of victim narrative, right? It’s happening to me.

I don’t have a lot of control versus what you said, agency and control, where it’s like, maybe I haven’t turned over every rock yet on what my options are to find more happiness.

So you’ve learned a few really important things that have to be true in our work for us to feel happy. And I want to talk about them one by one. So wherever you want to start, let’s start with the first and we’ll take them one at a time.

AO:
Brilliant. Can I just build on the point that you said, Sheridan, and it’s the idea of how much it’s going to cost us, for want of a better word, to make that transition. And it needs to be worth it for us to put in the effort because sometimes it’s just easier to stay where we are. It’s just easier because it’s the thinking, it’s the, oh, I have to interview again. I have to go looking. I have to get recommendations. And then there’s the rabbit hole of being ghosted. If you’re applying for jobs, there’s all of this stuff that goes on with it as well. In terms of the framework, I’m kind of rethinking my entire business framework, for the purposes of career happiness. For me, I kind of boil it down to three main pillars. And those are values that work and making sure our values are aligned with the values of the organization need satisfaction, which is not something that a lot of people talk about or know about can be applied in lots and lots of different areas of our lives, I think. And do we know that we even have needs?

Because for a long time, I didn’t even know that I had needs, but you certainly know when you feel frustrated at work. And then the third aspect is around strengths, understanding our strengths and being able to leverage our strengths as well.

I always, well, for quite a while, knew about corporate values. They’re the things that you see posted on the wall. They’re published. You might see them in your email. People know about them.

We often talk about them. We have meetings about them. You know, it comes up in our performance reviews, all of that. But I don’t remember ever working anywhere where I could see a real connection between the values of the organization and how people were behaving at work.

For me, there was a massive disconnect. And one place in particular where I used to work, I always thought one of the values when I worked there was simple. It was the most bureaucratic organization,

I think I’ve ever written. So it’s just, it’s that disconnect. And I think when you have that disconnect, there’s a sense of mistrust. If they’re lying about this, then what else are they lying about?

So that’s from the organization’s perspective. You have these corporate values.

CS:
And I wonder if sometimes the values are aspirational. Like when a corporation is putting them on their website, I picture people sitting in a conference room thinking like, this is who we want to be, but not necessarily how every employee in that organization is behaving. So that would contribute to the mismatch potentially that a new person would notice.

AO:
Totally. And I think it’s absolutely fine to say that these values are aspirational. We’re not there yet. But here’s the steps that we’re taking to get there. And this is the type of behavior that’s tolerated. And this is the type of behavior that’s not tolerated.

And this is how we’re going to address it. So we’re going to promote people. We’re going to reward people who are seen to be living those aspirational values and we’re going to hold people to account who are not demonstrating those values.

You know, it’s so, so important to not have that. First of all, to have to say one thing, but then to live that behavior as well. Yeah.

CS:
Do you have a couple of other examples, like simple was a good one. Like we value simplicity. What are a couple of other values-level statements? 

AO:
I think what I’m seeing more and more is that companies are moving more towards phrases as opposed to single words, because I think oftentimes we can both use the same word, but it might mean different things to different people. So integrity, I think, is, like, there’s some values that I think maybe they should just be given or understood or obvious, like things like respect and transparency, but they’re not always the case. But I think you can move on. So integrity might mean something different to me than it does to you. And like the example I share is, to me, integrity is doing the right thing. But that might mean doing the right thing for me. From your perspective, that might be for the organization or for society or generally, you know, don’t do anything illegal or whatever it might be. So I think sometimes single words are open to interpretation. If you can turn a single word into a phrase, or if you can even further build on that by saying, this is what the behavior looks like and this is what the behavior does not look like. So on the other side, this is what going against that value actually looks like. And probably for integrity, you could have a whole list of things.

CS:
A list. I think this is an interesting sort of nuance that values really lead to behaviors. They ladder to behaviors. And so if we’re focused on how we behave or how we want to see people behave,

and then we can sort of check our own desired behavior against that, it’s ultimately I’m hearing you say it’s the alignment between the observable behaviors of the organization lived out through their values.

And like my own, do I feel comfortable? Exactly. Yeah. And we haven’t really touched on that. But as an individual, we all have values as well. And again, this is not something I was really aware of up until about five or six years ago that I as an individual have core values that I’ve had my entire life and I will have my entire life.

And like that, if you think of it as I’m assessing how I expect people to behave in the workplace versus how they actually are behaving. So are we seeing people who are being bullied and is that tolerated in the organization Or it’s, you know, we say we respect people, but that kind of behavior is sort of swept under the carpet. When, you know, the leaders that are in place are not there upholding this kind of behavior.

They’re more kind of ignoring it or letting it slide. But we all have core values and a really easy way to identify what those are is by the things that frustrates you about other people’s behavior.

So an example of that, yeah, but it’s so much easier, I think, to focus on the things where you just get really annoyed with other people. So if they leave a mess or something, if, you know, then you’re like, do you really value order and structure? If you have someone who is overly serious or taking things too seriously, maybe you have a value of fun, for example, or just a bit of levity and things that you spend your time, energy and money on. So for me, I love traveling and I love reading and I love exploring things. But for me, I would put that down as learning. Learning is really important to me. I love learning about new cultures. I love learning from books and from taking courses and things like that.

So have a look at these things to understand you. But also, that’s as an individual, But in alignment with the organization, are there things where you’re noticing that actually this company doesn’t really invest in the development of their people?

So maybe they don’t value development and learning. But that’s something that’s really important to me. So if I’m looking for somewhere that I can be much happier, then maybe I need to find an organization that does that.

CS:
And I’ll give you another good example. Like if you think about two that might be at odds, efficiency versus precision. There’s something that’s really bothering you at work that you feel like I can’t do anything about. From the research that I’ve done, I looked at three of our universal needs.

AO:
So these are needs that everybody has. We have additional unique needs on top of this. But if you think about the first one, which is autonomy, and during the pandemic, oh, overnight, here you go, here’s all the autonomy that you need. And it’s not just about satisfying that need. It’s about finding the balance between having too much and too little autonomy.

So if you have too little autonomy, you feel like this. You’re being micromanaged. People are telling you what to do, when to do it, how to do it. And you feel like you have no sense of choice and control over what you do and how you do it, going back to this idea of choice again. So we need to feel a sense of choice and control. But equally on the other side, when you have too much choice and control, when you have too much freedom, it can be completely overwhelming. And we need that sense of direction and just guidance of like, this is very clear what you need to do.

So it’s about finding that balance. And at different points in our career there will be a different level of that as well. So if you think about an early career, they need a lot of direction and guidance.

But as you progress, you’re going to need less and less. Equally, if you start a new role, you need clear direction and guidance rather than just off you go now and you get up to speed.

So you need to think about what level you’re getting currently and whether that is you need more direction. And it’s okay to ask because I think oftentimes we feel a bit ashamed and This whole thing of the back -to -office mandates as well, that really frustrates our need for autonomy because they’re saying you have to be here on these days at these certain times. You know, it can just cause a lot of frustration for people when they don’t have control when they did for so long during the pandemic.

CS:
Well, and it creates, I would think, safety, you know, a sense of personal safety or psychological safety, to think, like, I have enough direction to be pretty sure I’m not going to go way off course here, but not so much that I can’t exercise creativity. Exactly. Okay, what’s the next one?

AO:
So there’s autonomy, relatedness, and competence. Relatedness is this sense of belonging, a feeling that we get along with the people that we work with. And I think you’ll know immediately, I think, whether you have something in common with them, or whether you would want to socialize with people outside of work. I think it’s really important. But also this idea that what I’m doing on a day -to -day basis relates to what I want to achieve in my life, bigger picture, what I want to achieve in my career, what the team is trying to achieve. So the work that I do matters to the achievements of the team, the department, the organization. And I can see a direct link with that. So I’m not just working for work’s sake. I’m not just being busy doing stuff and not really seeing the impact or the outcome of what it is that I’m working on.

If you as a manager can make that direct link for your employees, then they’ll see the impact of the work that they have. It’s really, really important to see,

Well, why am I doing this work? What is the purpose and what is the impact that it’s having?

CS:
I hear the word context in that, like providing context for how their work matters to the greater purpose of the organization or to a bigger project. It’s kind of that idea of you only see your piece of the puzzle. You really need to see how it’s contributing. So that one is kind of a two for one in relatedness. There’s the interpersonal relationships and also how does my work connect to the rest of the work?

Okay.

AO:
This is it. Okay. And then competence is feeling capable of doing your role. And this is where the role of feedback becomes really, really important. And similarly to autonomy, you can have an unmet sense of competence by having too little challenge and too much challenge. So if you have too little challenge, maybe you’re just feeling really bored. You’re like, I could do this with my eyes closed. And maybe people are comfortable in that space. I think the people who listen to your podcast probably are not those people.

They want to feel that challenge. They want to grow. But there are some people who are like, oh, I’m just going to cruise here for a while. But then on the other side, if you feel too challenged, you might feel like you’re in over your head, that you don’t know what you’re doing, that you have total imposter syndrome, that you’re going to get found out. So again, it’s finding that balance. So having not too much or too little challenge and having a sense of support from your direct manager about like how to, how to bridge that gap, I suppose. So those are the three universal needs.

CS:
So we have the values of the organization being matched and also lived out, right? What we’re told the values are, we want to see them lived out and we want to align ourselves with them.

Are our needs being met within the context of the organization and you kind of gave us the big three? And then you talk about strengths as the kind of third macronutrient here for happiness at work?

What is the role of strengths?

AO:
Strength is about making sure that you know what they are and you’re getting to use them on a day -to -day basis in the work that you do. And one thing I will say about strengths is oftentimes something comes so easily and naturally to us that we don’t realize that it’s a strength.

So if people come to you and they say, hey, Cherylanne, can you help me with this? That’s probably because they’ve recognized that you do it really simply and easily and you’re really good at it, but it’s about recognizing what are those strengths and how do I get to use them. But I think kind of slightly linked to this competence, it’s feeling challenged in that and being able to grow those strengths as well. It’s also not using your strengths too much to the maximum. If we think of your precision example, like if you’re so much of a stickler to the rules and you’re really great at catching out small little mistakes in, you know, you have really high attention to detail.

That can be your downfall. And you need to have someone else who can draw you back and say, here’s the bigger picture. We don’t need to get caught up in all of these little details.

So I often say that it’s really great if you can identify who those people are with complementary strengths. And the obvious one to me is always this big picture thinker versus the detail person.

How do you put them working on stuff together so that one person is without wanting to kill each other in the process? But with the acknowledgement and the recognition that actually these two strengths are really complementary, so we’re putting you together for this reason. Yes. Maybe then preface that by saying you may want to kill each other because this person is very visionary and maybe not grounded in reality all of the time.

This other person is very detail -oriented and they’re going to identify all the mistakes or all the ways that you can’t achieve that, but put them together with that acknowledgement and say, how can we make this a reality? How can we do something that’s really impactful for the organization? So first, it’s understanding your strengths and then it’s talking about these kinds of things because when I worked in corporate, we did not talk about this stuff. It was never mentioned.

CS:
It’s a meta principle. It’s like we talk about, I have these skills or I have these experiences, but we don’t talk about sort of these meta -level strengths that transcend all the things we do. If you are somebody who has a highly developed sense of discipline, you have it everywhere. If you are somebody who is really able to build strong interpersonal connections, you do that everywhere you go. So like these meta strengths are, they’re not, They don’t always enter the discourse because we’re so focused on skills and experiences. But they are really important because they do well with us no matter where we go career -wise, right? It doesn’t matter if we’re switching industries or fields. We still get to bring these strengths with us regardless. I thought you said something super important, which is we don’t want to be given so much freedom with our strengths that they can morph into a liability, right, where we just kind of run amok with our strength and nobody is bridling it or offsetting it because that’s where we cross over, like an overdeveloped strength becomes a liability. And we talked about that a little bit before the interview. I think it’s such an important point. I did not like this early in my career. I did not want anybody around me that had the opposite set of strengths because it felt like I was going to get constrained, right? In my use of my own. The reality is learning to negotiate with those people and work, you know, kind of forge solutions that encompassed, they worked for both of us, got us to better solutions.

It’s just time consuming. Yeah. It’s messy sometimes. And I think that’s why sometimes we resist it when we’re working through those permutations.

AO:
Totally. Yeah, yeah. No, it’s, I think the whole idea of strengths, and I’m a total other research nerd, I would love to do research into the link between specific strengths and skills that are required at work.

So can we say that if someone has this underlying strength, like you say, Cheryl, Ann, that can be brought from one context to another context and it shows up in all aspects of our life, how does that translate into very specific learnable skills, hard skills in the workplace? So if you are very detail -oriented, a natural problem solver, it probably translates into some sort of a coding computer programming type of thing.

Even if you don’t have that specific skill, you’ll probably pick it up quite easily.

CS:
Interesting. So how does it change playing fields? If you switch your playing field completely, is there any kind of a correlation between the two? Interesting.

AO:
Yeah. Can you learn it more quickly than the average person, let’s say, if you have an underlying strength.

CS:
And I think that’s kind of where I want to go next. How do we use this? You’ve figured out that these are the three things that can make us happier. Happiness sort of hinges upon these three things being met. How does this help us do two things? One is to be happier in our current role. Let’s say a listener is saying, OK, I can see now where my problem is. What kind of opportunity is there within an existing role to optimize for happiness, given that some of these things are not going to change, right? And then also, how does it help us evaluate future opportunities? Like, how much can we really learn before we’re in the door about these matches?

AO:
Yeah. So, yeah, two aspects to that. I say the first one is just simply acknowledging that, like, oh my God, now I can see everything that’s going wrong. Sometimes that’s enough for us to say, now I understand, now I feel understood and seen. And here’s a framework within which I can use. So if we take them kind of one by one from a values perspective, I think now that you know that, maybe it’s getting a better understanding of, well, where are the places where the values are showing up well in that organization.

Where is it that respect is showing up or integrity or honesty or fun or whatever it might be that you have as a value, focus on the good and, you know, try and I always talk about gratitude and not always great at practicing it, but definitely preaching it about this idea of gratitude and focusing on the positives.

And then it’s much easier rather than getting frustrated and if I think back again as a slight aside to when I worked in corporate and every day you sent me for lunch at my friends and just had a moaning session basically and everything was so bad and it was so negative and for two different reasons they both left the organization and I wasn’t going to lunch and complaining about my job every day and things magically improved just by not focusing on all of the negatives. It was like, it was a huge lesson for me that, wow, if I stop moaning about what, all of the bad things that are happening, things just improved naturally.

CS:
Your perspective shifts, right? You start noticing a different, same collection of stuff. I’m going to look on the left instead of the right, and we start to feel like, oh, well, then that’s what I’m giving my attention to.

AO:
Exactly. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally. Then from the needs perspective, maybe understanding what specifically are you frustrated about? Is there something, are you not getting enough guidance at work? Are you getting, are you feeling like you’re being too micromanaged? It is hard, I think, to have that conversation with your manager, but you do need to have those conversations, especially if you’re saying, on the one hand, if you’re kind of, you’re not going to say you’re micromanaging me, hopefully. you have more of a better language to use. Yeah, exactly. But you might be feeling like you’re being micromanaged. There are techniques, not going to go into all of them right now, but there are ways to manage a micromanager, you know, kind of getting ahead of yourself, getting ahead of time, communicating stuff in advance so that they feel in control. And thinking of the understanding or you’re trying to understand what’s going on for them, that’s causing them to have these kinds of control issues, if you like. And then on the other side, if you’re feeling like you don’t have enough direction, maybe you feel like you’ve failed somehow, that you haven’t understood properly that it’s your fault. You need to have that conversation as well and say, can I get a bit of clarification around these expectations? Like the expectations, I think, are to be all and end all at work. If we think about how we expect people to behave or the expectation that people place on us when we join an organization or the expectations that we have in a particular role, you need to explicitly say what those expectations are so that people can live up to those expectations rather than assuming a lot of the time we assume that people are mind readers, that they know that they’re doing well or that they know that they’re not doing well. So I think being able to identify specifically what area you’re feeling frustrated in and have that difficult conversation. It’s going to be hard.

CS:
It’s so important that you’re giving the permission and the agency to the individual, right? So sometimes I think we sit back and wait for our boss to kind of figure it out and see that we’re suffering and give us the feedback or make the change and we have never actually communicated, hey, this is my way. Because those conversations take courage. Those are, you know, I’m always saying, like, everything we want is on the other side of a courageous conversation. And they are, by definition, courageous, right? They’re not easy, but they’re so worth it. Because you know for sure, right, you get to the other side and it gets a terrible reception and you’re like, well, now I know. There’s not going to be a lot of maneuverability here. Or you get to the other side and there’s movement and it’s like, okay, that was worth it because I actually, it got me closer to what I need or what I want. So I love that idea of putting the permission and the agency in the hands of the individual, right? Because you don’t show up like a complainer. You show up with, hey, I want to be clear about this pattern I’m seeing, have some ideas about what I think we could do for me to be a stronger contributor, this is what I think I will need absolutely within your rights to ask for that.

AO:
Yeah, yeah. But going back to what you had said earlier, it’s, you know, it’s getting out of that victimhood.

Oh, I’m a victim of my circumstances. My boss is micromanaging me and life is terrible. It’s getting out of that victim mode and saying, okay, so this is happening. These are the circumstances. What role can I play to start changing those circumstances?

CS:
And again, I think it’s very important to underline, like, for the 15th time, this might result in something that creates more happiness at work. It might not. But at least you’ll know, right? And so I think back to that question about how this helps us evaluate a future opportunity? Let’s say we reach the point where we’re like, well, I’ve done the thing. It’s not going to happen here. And it’s time for us to make a change. Is there anything we can extract from your work?

AO:
I would say go to, and I’m trying to think there’s glass door. You can look at salaries, you can look at people’s opinion of the CEO, people’s experiences with their bosses and things like that to get a real sense. If you can connect with someone who is in that organization and just have an informal conversation with someone about what it’s like to work there, like there are so many different ways. LinkedIn makes it so small that you can connect, you can reach out. Yeah, you’re not reaching out to the hiring manager. you know. Having a set of questions because I don’t I don’t know what it’s like these days but certainly when I was interviewing for people to join our organization people they just didn’t have a lot of great questions yeah in relation to how am I going to really fit in into this organization so I would say if you’re moving you’re moving for a reason and you want to make sure that you don’t experience that same thing that you experienced before, what questions can you formulate based on that experience? So is it about the culture? Is it specific aspects of the culture? Is it the flexibility? Is it, you know, and asking direct questions about the management style, about what you’re not going to say, am I going to have my needs met, but you might be able to pinpoint specifically where you’re feeling a bit challenged at the moment or feeling a bit frustrated and turn that into a question.

CS:
I just wonder if you think you said something that sparked a thought for me. I wonder if you think about yourself as sort of, it’s like a reverse interview, right? You know all the classic interview questions that you’re going to give a BS answer to that you’ve polished up over time, right? Because everyone’s learned how to do it. Well, they can do the same thing, right? If you say, well, what are the values of this organization? They are going to read to you from the corporate values that are on the website. You’re going to have to figure out, I suspect, like a more sort of case study -based question or example -based question that really gets to, you can interpret or you can intuit what are the values from their answer.

But I think if you come at it head on, it might fall flat. You might be disappointed. Totally, because you should have done all of this research already. Their values are going to be on their website.

So you can hone in on one particular value. They might say, we celebrate success or something like that. And then you can say, well, how do you celebrate success? What does that look like?

Give me a recent example of a success that you celebrated. Show me, you know, and it’s examples. It’s exactly that. It’s not… Storytelling. It’s not a hypothetical situation, “what would you do?” How recently was this and how did it land? Like, how did people feel?

CS:
I mean, y ‘all, that is a pro tip. If you can get your interviewer telling stories about the organization while you are the one being interviewed, you will learn so much more than if they’re answering in hypotheticals and platitudes, right? So courageously, you’ve got to be willing to ask those kinds of questions back when you have that opportunity at the end. I love it. I think that’s so helpful. And I also liked the perspective about trying to get to some people who are not the interviewer to gain that really honest perspective as well. Okay, as much as I could talk to you for the next 14 hours, I think the work you’re doing is so important. I want to make sure that our listeners can find their way to your work to get more. What is the best place for them to find you online?

AO:
I have a podcast called Happier at Work. So since you’re listening to a podcast, since you’re watching a podcast, search for Happier at Work. If you’re on YouTube, it’s Happier at Work H .Q. And if you’re listening on any podcast platform, just search Happier at Work. I’m not going to spell out my name or will I because people are like,how do you spell that? I’m most active on LinkedIn. But if you find my podcast, you’ll find all of my links to all of my social time to be with us today.

CS:
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this conversation.