Episode #393 – Finding Grit When You Need it Most with Shannon Huffman Polson

Cherylanne Skolnicki:

I am Cherylanne Skolnicki, and this is Brilliant Balance, the show for those of us who still dare to want it all, who have big dreams and bold ambitions, I think we deserve to have a big, full life and the freedom to enjoy it. So let’s design our next chapter together for brilliance, not burnout. Each week I’ll bring ideas, insight, and a fresh perspective to keep you growing into a life that feels as good as it looks brilliant. Balance your life your way. Now let’s get started. This is episode 393 of the Brilliant Balance Podcast, Finding Grit when You Need It Most with my guest, Shannon Huffman Polson. So you are in for a treat today if you are tuning into the Brilliant Balance Show, because my guest today is just an extraordinary interview. Shannon Huffman Polson is the author of the Grit Factor, courage, resilience, and leadership in the Most Male Dominated Organization in the World.

I’ll leave you guessing for a second what that is. And she is the founder of the Grit Institute, which is a leadership institute committed to whole leader development with a real focus on grit and resilience. Now, Shannon really cut her teeth in a male dominated organization called the US Army. She was one of the first women to fly the Apache helicopter in the US Army. She led line units on three continents during her service. And she really took her passion and firsthand experience in her study of leadership and grit to deliver keynotes around the world and training to companies and organizations who are trying to imbue leadership and grit inside of their culture, their culture. She served for a decade in the armed services after earning her undergraduate degree at Duke, then went on to get her MBA at the Tuck School at Dartmouth, and then she did corporate work.

She worked at Boston Scientific and Microsoft before starting the Grit Institute, which is really the work that she’s so committed to doing today. She has done so many cool things in her life that we did not even get to talk about in this interview. Like she shares that she grew up in Alaska. She was the youngest woman to summit Denali or McKinley in Alaska. She, it was the, it’s North America’s highest peak, and at 19, she was the youngest woman to successfully summit that mountain. She has so many extraordinary accomplishments flying the Apache, which I referenced, and really incredible leadership experience, um, in some really big companies. But what we got a chance to talk about in this interview was our shared experience of learning how to cultivate grit during the times when we need it most. And she shares what some of the biggest challenges have been in her life that caused her to dig deep for resilience.

And I think she also gives a really important caution that while grit is valuable and something that we all wanna cultivate, it is also not sustainable. We can’t make the need to have grit become a way of life, right? And, and really emphasizing the importance of some counterbalancing practices to that. So she is just a really strong presence. I think you’re gonna get a lot out of this interview. So without further ado, let me present Shannon Hoffman Paulson. Well, Shannon, welcome to Brilliant Balance. It has been fun to meet you. I was, we were catching up before this, that it’s taken a few like fits and starts here to actually get on an interview site live, but I’m so happy to be talking to you today.

Shannon Huffman Polson:

I’m so happy to be with you, Cherylanne. Thanks for having me.

CS:

You have an absolutely extraordinary story. I will admit, I sent, uh, your bio to my dad, who is an Army vet, and I was like, you have to read this story of this person that I’m interviewing. And he was just delighted, as you might imagine. So you have just a really extraordinary backstory, and I don’t wanna give too much of it away. We’re gonna kind of reveal it as we go. But I wanna really start in maybe an unexpected place, which is how you grew up. Like, I wanna hear what young Shannon was like, and were you always someone who sought out challenges and adventures or like what were you like as a little kid?

SHP:

Yeah, it’s interesting. I think I changed a lot over my childhood. I was initially fairly shy. I played the piano, but I did grow up in Alaska. And so I think that that childhood in a wild place with parents who got us out of doors all the time, and we were willing to be uncomfortable and we were made to be uncomfortable and in the best of ways, I think really did help to shape the person that I would ultimately become. And I’m so grateful for growing up in a place that is really quite unique. And, um, later on as a teenager, I started to debate and I was on the debate team and I was the captain of the swim team and the head of the literary magazine and all of those things. So I think there was some pivot point around, you know, the early teenage years that things started to shift for sure towards a little bit more adventure. But early on I was, I’ve been told that recently even by a friend that I was quite shy.

CS:

So interesting. Like somewhere along the way, something unlocked. What do you think really shaped your early sense of discipline? Were you a discipline kid? Were you a rules follower?

SHP:

Well, I was the first child, so yes, yes. All of those things. Uh, I definitely had a strict upbringing as well. My dad was loving but strict and had very high expectations for us. And I’m incredibly grateful for that. I think kids need to have high expectations and they want to grow into those high expectations. And that doesn’t mean that things were always easy or smooth sailing and far from it. And in fact, we clashed quite a bit, but, but ultimately I think that discipline came from my dad and, and wanting to please as the first child, not always in the best ways that made everybody happy in my family, right? But the way that I knew that I wanted to succeed,

CS:

You know, what’s behind it, like there’s an intention behind it that’s pure, but sometimes the way we express that when we’re younger is a little misguided. You know?

SHP:

It’s, and you know, the other piece I think is a really important pivot is my parents divorced when I was 12 and I still, and and I’ve now experienced several other significant traumas in my life. I think of that as the most significant trauma in my life. And I know that kids respond to those things in many different ways. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I think my response was to try to overachieve so that people would leave me alone, <laugh>. And that actually at the end of the day was probably a pretty big part of that pivot. And it could have gone many different ways, but that’s the way it went for me.

CS:

So interesting. It’s so interesting. I’m so, like, the psychology of how our childhoods affect us is just endlessly fascinating to me. And you look at how the story unfolds and all the pivots and points that will never grow old for me, that’s for sure. Yes. So you were obviously academically talented. You went to Duke for undergrad. Yeah. What drew you there? What made you decide,

SHP:

Oh gosh. Well, this goes back to this growing teenage angst and wanting to get a long way away from home, honestly, because it was the late eighties and nobody that I had known had gone to Duke or to the South. I knew nothing about the South. I knew nothing about anything about sororities and fraternities and the Greek system and all of the pieces that go into a southern university.

CS:

Basketball, maybe, yeah, <laugh>

SHP:

Basketball. Basketball. And you know, we actually had an Alaskan on the Duke basketball team. But no, I was a swimmer, you know, I was a swimmer.

CS:

It was not your thing, so

SHP:

It wasn’t my thing. But, um, but I did grow to appreciate it and I’m a huge fan of Coach K. So both of those things grew and developed over time, but really I think I wanted to get a long way away from home. I was fortunate to have opportunities to go a lot of different places and, and we did go on a college trip and Duke was the place where people seemed friendly and, and, uh, and welcoming on my, you know, half day visit. And so that’s where I ended up,

CS:

Checked all the boxes, most especially far away from home. Yeah.

SHP:

Ex Yeah, exactly. That’s right. I didn’t apply anywhere nearby, so that’s And

CS:

What did you study?

SHP:

I studied English literature and art history.

CS:

So wild. Right. I just, this is, again, with the pivots, it’s like there’s nothing about this story so far that is leading where I know it’s going. So it, for the listeners, they’re like, where, where are we going with this? Yeah. And

SHP:

Yet I would say that English lit pieces are my passion, right? Like it always has been my passion, but my story will go many different directions. It sure

CS:

Will. Because you made this decision to join the Army. Yes. So tell me about that decision.

SHP:

Part of this was the late eighties, early nineties. Alaska was economically really bumpy. I was the first child, it was not, we were not from a wealthy family. And I knew that I was already working three different jobs at college. And I knew that I wanted to see if I, if something resonated with, with ROTC because it was a college fair and they were all represented there. I was like, you know, this is a way to, to help pay for college. Absolutely. I would hate it because that was just not anything that had been on my radar at all. And then I signed up for the Army because you could be a liberal arts major and in both the Air Force and the Navy, you had to be an engineer and I was not gonna be interested there. So the army, the army got me for the English <laugh>, which is not what you would expect. No. And I kept loving it. I mean, it was a bunch of, of kids or college students that were a lot like I was, we had grown up in families that were, you know, largely patriotic, that believed in service, that believed in, you know, working really hard and had worked ever since we were young and also didn’t have the benefit of having somebody paying for a college tuition. Right. So it was,

CS:

It was kind of a crappiness to the kind of archetype right. Of a kid who decides, okay, I’m gonna do ROTC and get this education handled, and then yep, I have some service and Roger that. Like I, yeah, I can hear it. And so that, of course, ROTC comes with a commitment. If the listener doesn’t know this to serve for four years right after, um, graduation,

SHP:

It does as an

CS:

Officer,

SHP:

Four years as an officer, unless you take my route, which was aviation, and then at six years after you finish flight school and your transition. So it ended up for me being eight years off of active service time because of the aviation component and the additional training that was required. But you know, when you’re 21, you sign on the dotted line, you have absolutely no idea right. What your twenties mean or what, what, what that means.

CS:

I mean, I don’t know, aviation probably just sounds cool at that point. It’s like, well that sounds like a cool gig to, you know, if I’m gonna serve.

SHP:

You know, Alaska has the largest, I think, percentage of private aviation I believe anywhere in the world, certainly anywhere in the country. And I had also been drilling with the National Guard as part of my scholarship for the last few years of college with an aviation unit. So there was some understanding that went into that. But, but certainly I had this appreciation that if I had service to do, which I was very excited and proud to do, I wanted to do the most interesting thing that I could do.

CS:

Of course. Of course. And I get, again, that’s where you’re like, you’re in a 21-year-old brain making those decisions. Like what’s the coolest way to execute this commitment that I have? And I think you found one, right? Because y’all, as Shannon’s story unfolds here, um, you go on to be one of the first women to fly Apache helicopters. So we gotta hear about this. This is no small thing, right? What is that like, tell me about the first time that you sat in the cockpit of an Apache. What was going through your mind?

SHP:

Oh, well, you know, you start out in a simulator, they don’t let you in the cockpit right away. And, actually the Apache comes after a full year of flight school. So I had already been qualified to fly on the, uh, one Huey and the oh 58, which is essentially the jet ranger, the, uh, oh 58 observation helicopter. So I was qualified on both of those. I had just finished the officer basic course as well. So that was over a year of training. And then you apply for, and are ideally accepted into an advanced aircraft qualification. And, you know, the Apache had only opened up the year that I graduated from college, and I had been told by the state aviation officer that I would never fly an attack helicopter. Uh, that was just not an option for me. And I, I hadn’t really considered it because it had been closed, but once it was opened up, and it was, this is the combat exclusion clause was lifted in 1993 for aviation for Women, uh, and I talked to people who had flown, not just flown the aircraft, but flown that mission and flown with that cohort of pilots and crew chiefs.

SHP:

And the crew chiefs don’t fly, but they support it. And it’s very much a team that is part of that equation. Okay.

SHP:

It was definitely the thing that I wanted to do. It sounded like it was the hardest thing to do. It sounded like the most challenging. Uh, and, and then you sit in the cockpit for the first time, like, like you asked. Right. And it is a, I mean, it’s a massive aircraft, you know, it’s 58 feet long. It’s, you know, 18 feet across, it’s 12 feet high, there’s two different 1,850 horsepower jet engines. It has three different weapon systems and three different site systems. Wow. You can see in any condition. And, uh, and it’s a pretty amazing feeling to do the work, to be able to take that first flight and, and all of the subsequent flights as well. I don’t think it was anything other than exhilarating, a little bit scary, a little bit terrifying, a little bit, um, really thrilling, honestly. It was an incredible machine to have an opportunity, opportunity to, to deploy.

CS:

Yeah. And the moment in time, like just you said 90, given me the range of years that you were serving after college. So

SHP:

I went to Officer Basic course in flight school in 19 93, 93, and I Irv until 2001.

CS:

Okay. So like you, during that time, I am sure that there are not just one but many, many moments that tested you, that you kind of had to dig deep mentally and physically and emotionally. Can you tell a story about one time or more that comes to mind when you really kind of learn to dig for resilience?

SHP:

Yeah. There, I mean there are many <laugh>, there are many in many different ways. And I would say that, the most important thing, and maybe the most, one of the most interesting things is that very few of them were in the cockpit. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like, you train to fly, you fly this machine, it doesn’t care if you’re male or female or black or white or Asian. It just is a machine that needs to be flown and controlled well. And, they train you very well to do that. And when you do your work, you’re very good at that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So that is rarely where I found that challenge. That was the most multi-dimensional, I think. Well,

CS:

There’s probably hyper-focused too in an environment like that. It’s like everything else shuts down. I have this one thing to do here, which is Yes. Sometimes it is freeing, like, you know, the, the ability to shut out the rest of the things swirling.

SHP:

Yeah, absolutely. And then the bigger challenges are of course, and this is true in any part of our life, once we have lived long enough to recognize it is always with the, the part of change, uh, that you’re participating in. Right. <laugh> and, and somewhat inadvertently, again, 21 years old, you sign on the line, this sounds like it’s gonna be a great adventure and opportunity to serve. And, yet the very act of being present as one of the first women to fly the Apache was a massive change for the military. Yeah. And it was a massive change for the units that I was coming into. And, you know, there’s a bell curve of people in any large institution to include the military. I worked with some of the best people I will ever know in my life, and I worked with some of the worst.

SHP:

Yeah. And it’s also a very insular environment, and so there’s an opportunity for, for things to be really difficult. Mm-hmm. And there’s not a lot of outside support or resources. And I guess that’s the general, the, the general picture that I would, would paint. I walked into my very first unit when I was, I was 23 years old, so I had just been trained. I had just cut all of my hair off really, really short because I was not gonna let anybody have any excuses to say Sure. That she couldn’t be here. And I wasn’t trying to to be masculine, but I was also not, I was specifically not trying to be feminine either because I didn’t want

CS:

You make it a non-issue. Right. Make

SHP:

It is a non-issue. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I remember, I worked out really hard. I was, I have always been an athlete and I made sure that I maxed every PT test, which means you did the best that you could do on that. Yes. Physical fitness test. And I remember there was at one point the feedback to that was, oh, well all she cares about is pt. She doesn’t really care about anything else. And I was like, wow. You can’t, even

CS:

The backhanded Yeah. <laugh>,

SHP:

You can’t even, you can’t win for winning. Right. You have to Right. Better than anybody else around you. And yet even so there are going to be challenges. And I can think of these small things that at this point in my life now sounds somewhat small. It’s very different when you’re 23 years old.

CS:

23, sure.

SHP:

Right. And you walk in and there’s, you know, there’s a nudie calendar up in the safety office and, and I wouldn’t try to make a joke because I didn’t really know how to address my discomfort or the discomfort of, Hey, that’s not really supposed to be there anymore. I know it used to be, but now it’s not. And I would make a joke about, you know, the house decorations or something like that mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, and, and that would always end up coming back and kind of biting you in some sort of a way. And part of that is my naivete as well. Right. And being very young in this new environment. But it definitely made it, it’s what we now call the double crucible. It’s why Yes. When I wrote this, I interviewed these other leaders in the vanguards of their fields because you both are doing this incredibly challenging work within your field, but you’re also working in an environment which is either not comfortable to have you there or sometimes is outright hostile. And so that is that that double crucible, and that’s a term coined by Deborah Rhode at Stanford for that double challenge that anybody faces when you’re first coming into environment. Right.

CS:

Yeah. It is so clear that, you know, we’re sim, we are of similar age and that era of history, right. Where we’re in the early nineties and everyone is trying to like, act like we can do absolutely anything we wanna do, we can be anything we wanna be, we’re sure we’re seeing regulations and restrictions lifted akin to what you described in the military in combat. And everywhere else, right. We’re kind of like breaking through all these barriers. And yet it wasn’t like that made it easy. Like just because it was permissible or sanctioned did not in any way kind of prepare the culture Right. To accept those firsts and, and near firsts in all the different fields. So I think that it’s an alchemy that bred grit. Just, you know, we’re gonna go on to talk about your work around the idea of grit. But I think that living in that particular era, as a woman in your case with a lot of talent, a lot of aptitude, a lot of skill, a lot of determination. But then to still kind of be, like, to hear you say the hardest thing was actually dealing with the cultural implications of the people around me. And I, I think you’re right, it always is. It’s not the work we’re qualified to do, it’s kind of what it feels like to do the work. Yeah.

SHP:

And, and, and some, in some cases, there are very specific things that will, will come up and, and be present that are, that are pretty openly in opposition to moving forward. And, and that is just one of those things where I think there is a, um, you know, all through school and even the schoolhouse at Fort Rucker, Alabama, right. All of those school environments are generally quite supportive, in my experience at least. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Even if you are one of the only, and, uh, and usually you’re not quite as, you’re not quite as much of a minority in a schoolhouse environment. But then when you get out to where the real world is, it’s quite different. And I’ve talked to, you know, women’s business groups where it’s a group of young women, you know, at my alma mater business school who have all gone from college into a consulting role and now they’re at business school. And they’ll say something like, I don’t really understand why we need to have these meetings. You know, I, it’s, it’s really all the same. And I’m just thinking, you’ve, you’ve only been in that one environment, but as soon as you get operational mm-hmm <affirmative>. As soon as you get operational, everything changes. And I think that’s really important to understand both for the person who is approaching that so that you can properly prepare and buttress and, and have the resources you need to succeed, but also for those people who are leading within those organizations.

CS:

That’s right.

SHP:

How different

CS:

That is. That’s right. And I, this is something that I sometimes get into debates about because my work, and the listeners will know this, is really very focused on the individual. Like most of my work is around equipping the individual to thrive, kind of no matter what the environment around them is like. Yes. And of course, there is a need for people who, their passion and their place, they’re gonna do their life’s work is an institutional change. And how are we gonna create environments that are in fact more welcoming, you know, that honor, kind of the full 360 view of the person. But I think you gotta kind of pick your, choose where are you gonna do your work? I’m choosing to do my work for the individuals. I am celebrating and I’m delighted that there’s people doing work that are, you know, focusing on the culture. ’cause it’s, it’s both and that’s ultimately gonna get us there.

SHP:

It always is. It has to be both. And, and I’m so glad you brought that up. I also feel like when I wrote the grip factor, I wrote it with that young leader in mind. Yes. So that was my avatar. Right. So that is individual work. And yet I would also suggest that every single point along the way, every piece of it that builds this grit triad is something that you can then take into a culture, not just as a leader helping others in their individual work, which is step one. But in step two you can apply these same frameworks to organizations truly. Yeah. And it’s not that different. There are different tactics and techniques that you’ll put in place, but the concepts and the construct of that framework is very similar. So, yeah.

CS:

Well, you’re giving me a great transition to talk about grit and, and your work with the Grit Institute and their authorship of the grit factor. But help me build a bridge to that. So, you know, we have you in the military, you’re actively serving, you’re learning these lessons and, and still performing. What was it that ultimately led to leaving the military and how does that bridge us to the work you do today?

SHP:

Yeah, I, it’s a long story, so I’ll try to make it short on leaving the military. I think the easiest way to say it is that when I looked forward to what the opportunities were in the military, I didn’t see anybody above me that I wanted to be or living in the way that I wanted to live. And specifically women, but, but actually men as well. And I remember at one point we were in Kuwait, uh, and it was just an exercise there, it was not, not the war. And I remember waiting, we were manifest. They’d manifest you to fly out and then you would be canceled. Then they’d manifest you and then it would get canceled. And there was one time I was sitting out on the tarmac and I’m sitting on my duffle bag and it’s 120 degrees or something like that. And I looked to my left and there’s a private sitting on his duffel bag. And I looked to my right and there’s a colonel sitting on his duffel bag. And I’m like this, it never changes <laugh>. So nope,

CS:

This is gonna be the same forever.

SHP:

And that’s not, it’s not entirely fair. There are people who have very meaningful careers, uh, in the military. And extend for me, I wanted to be part of a community. I wanted to have a family, which I did not envision in the military, although there are people who have, who do, uh, especially I think in later years after I left. But, um, it didn’t feel like a place where I could contribute my best work. And that’s, that’s,

CS:

I just wanna pause there for a second because, you know, if we, we could insert corporation X, you know, nonprofit Y into this story and have the same thing, but I think that that is a universal experience. Yes. I left a corporate career after 15 years to do entrepreneurial work, I think, and one, and my answer could have been exactly the same. You know, I looked up and said, not only do I not want those jobs, I don’t see people living the life I wanna live who are in those jobs. Yeah. It’s like there’s this both, and, and that is a crucible moment. I mean, that is one of those times when you’re saying everything that I have worked for all of this effort that I’ve put in to climb this particular ladder, I am, I’m saying it got me here. I have a lot of gratitude for what got me here, but now I’m gonna have to pack up my courage and go start a new chapter if I want to get the life I really want. And yes, it’s so brave, right? I mean, I felt that way when I did it. I don’t think I realized how brave it was. And I see it in you like walking away from something that certainly had upward potential for you. I’m sure.

SHP:

For sure, for sure. Yeah. No, I knew that I would do well if I stayed in, but I also felt like I was becoming somebody that wasn’t who I really was. Fully

CS:

You Yeah.

SHP:

Me to, to, to, to do well. I had to be somebody that wasn’t who I was. And that, that was, I couldn’t have defined it exactly that way at that time until

CS:

Later. Yeah. But

SHP:

I also made that decision later from a corporate career as well, when you start to realize that there’s something that doesn’t fit my purpose in my values, and not that there’s anything wrong with what I’m doing, but it just isn’t the right direction. And I come back again and again to this phrase that every one of us needs and every person that works with us, or for us needs and our children need to be able to contribute their best selves in the world. And the world needs us to contribute our best selves. And so the key is the, the hope is the, the purpose is, is to find that purpose, right? That thing that transcends ourself where we’re able to make our absolute best contributions. And it will never be easy. It will usually come at a cost. And it is ultimately at the end, I, I hope worth it.

CS:

Amen. Yeah. I could not agree more. Hey, there, quick pause to talk to the woman who has done everything right? You built a career, you’ve checked the boxes, you’ve hit the goals, but you’re wondering what’s next and you don’t love the answer, then this is for you. I want you to join me for a bold open house. This is an intimate live conversation with other high achieving women who are rethinking success and building what’s next with clarity and confidence. Now, this isn’t a webinar, it’s a real talk off the record space to ask your questions, get insight, and see why bold works for women like you. So if you’re craving momentum and purpose and the right people to help you accelerate, this is your next step. Go to brilliant balance.com/open house to save your seat. There’s no pressure and there’s no replay. This is just one powerful hour that could change everything. So you had a corporate bridge that then led to the Grit Institute. So briefly tell us about the corporate chapter.

SHP:

Yeah, yeah. Very, very briefly. I spent two years at the Tuck School at Dartmouth. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I did a full-time MBA program, which I’m incredibly grateful for. I now teach as part of the executive education faculty at that MBA program, which is also a complete joy. But then worked in the medical device industry and then ultimately at Microsoft. And so I had about five years or so just in the corporate space, working in business development, working in sales, leading teams, leading global efforts and change. Mm-hmm. And it, and it was a lot of fun. A lot of it was, I really found it, um, I mean it was compelling. It was challenging

CS:

A learning experience. Sure.

SHP:

Great learning experience. And I, it, I think the long story short is we had a family tragedy early in my time in Microsoft. I write about it in my first book, which is called North of Hope, uh, which is only available a few places right now, unfortunately. But, uh, but, but that I left Microsoft ultimately to write that book. Okay. And also because we were getting ready to start a family and I was working hours that didn’t support that kind of, um, yeah. Focus on our family life. So it was a kind of a combination of those two factors. And the first book came out. I gave a present, it’s a memoir, so it’s a lot more personal than the grip factor is, but I gave a presentation to an online women’s leadership group. And at the point that I gave that presentation, I didn’t even know what the platform was, it was pre zoom, you know?

SHP:

Right. So I had no idea on that call. And then New York Life reached out and said, Hey, would you come to New York and present to us? And the long story made quite short is that that developed into what has now been well over 10 years of a public leadership speaking, keynote speaking career, in addition to developing executive education for companies and clients in addition to teaching at the Tuck School. And then ultimately writing the grit factor, which really pulls together a lot of the ideas, the frameworks, uh, brings in other people’s experiences as well, to come up with a cohesive framework for grit and resilience that looks at a person in a very holistic sort of a way. Well,

CS:

That’s a lot, right? <laugh>, let’s unpack a few of those things. So I, some of this I did not know even in my research. So, there’s a memoir that gets published, you’re doing, speaking in an online environment, and essentially it sparks more interest in having you come and speak, which then leads to founding the Grit Institute. So you’re starting to pull like your ideas, your body of work together into something cohesive. The book Yes. And the institute. So the Grit Institute does consulting work with,

SHP:

Primarily with, so I don’t do direct consulting typically, although I do end up having a few engagements that are more akin to that. But really it’s about working with a company to find a way to integrate the training around the grit factor, as well as going deep into purpose. Because there’s a lot of really interesting and super important work around purpose, which is the new direction of the Grid Institute as well on grit and resilience into the purpose space specifically, because that is really what it turns out was at the root of this massive upheaval during covid, right? Yeah. This massive workplace upheaval, which is that people were not connected to their own personal purpose, so they couldn’t connect that personal purpose to their workplace purpose. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I started to dig into that research, dig into my own experience and others’ experiences. And that has resulted in now a six week training course that we have implemented at multiple companies across the country, uh, and internationally have also implemented at the Tuck School as part of their next step program, and also have actually a program for high school and college kids. I love that that is meant to be a facilitated program, uh, and really get more into communication and some of the emotional resilience as well.

CS:

That’s amazing. Because I think I wanna just talk about resilience and its relationship to grit for a second. It’s like I’m, it’s something I’m fascinated by that I do think to have grit. Yes. You have to exhibit sort of sequential episodes of resilience. Right. It’s like you could almost define it as resilience over and over and over again is what gives you grit. And that ability to stick with something, I also can immediately see the connection to purpose because it’s so much easier to persevere in pursuit of something if you care deeply and feel deeply aligned. Yes. It’s much harder to stick with something if you’re like, I just don’t care. Like I don’t care enough about this to have to go through the hard chapters of getting knocked down and back up again. Right. Totally. So I think about, yeah, my chapter as an entrepreneur when 15 years ago when I started Brilliant balance in, in an earlier permutation and all the twists and turns since then, I do think that’s the thing that gets me up every day and kind of keeps picking me back up whenever something goes sideways is yes, I believe so much in the value of what we’re trying to do here.

CS:

Right. So can you have grit if you don’t have purpose?

SHP:

Uh, I think you may have episodes of grit. There you go, for

CS:

Sure. Mm-hmm

SHP:

<affirmative>. I think it is much more difficult for that to be a sustainable sort of a, and I’m not gonna say sustainable skill in the sense that it’s something that you should sustain. I always say that grit is a really important capability, but it is not something that should be a sustainable operating mode. Right. Right. That’s something you could draw on that you should be able to employ, but not that you should have to be living every moment. Because really I think there’s very few people who would be able to manage that.

CS:

That’s what I call white knuckling it. Like if you’re in a chapter where you’re kind of white knuckling, you can do it for a while, but you can’t live that way. Yes. Yeah. You

SHP:

Can’t live that way. And, and in some regards, grit can be, and I talk about it as a dogged determination in the face of difficult circumstances, but when I break out the grit triad, which are the different components of grit, that really came out of the conversations with the many other leaders in the vanguards of their fields that are part of the grit factor. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. In addition to my own, the foundation of that grit triad is called the commit phase. That commit phase is this deep internal work of owning your own story and connecting to your core purpose. That’s foundational to grit and resilience. And it’s the place that I recommend people return to when things get really tough, when times are turbulent, when times are uncertain, when you’re feeling like you can’t get through because you don’t know what’s happening next. And, and there’s this, this angst or this anxiousness, and there’s a lot of that right now. And I say, you’ve gotta come back to that foundation, which is owning your story and connecting to purpose. And that is internal work before you get into the second leg, which is to learn deep engagement in the present and the third leg, which is launch, which is that groundedness in the past, that engagement in the present and then looking towards the future. But that foundational piece you’ve gotta return to again and again and again. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

CS:

So in this triad, when you think about owning your story and connecting to purpose, it’s sort of like, this is the rootedness, this is how you stay grounded, this is the thing you come back to. Yes. And then you went into the second which was learn, and it was deep engagement in the present. Present.

SHP:

Yes, exactly. That’s about building your team. So building the support structure that you need to succeed, understanding that none of us do this alone. So that’s the first piece. The second part of that is if you are in a leadership position or you have a family, it’s about supporting your team as well. So it’s both. And because taking care of your people is the most important job as a leader. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. The second part of that is the art and the science of active listening, which is fascinating. that came out as the most important strategic leadership skill in all of the conversations I had with the general officers and admirals across the services. Right. It’s that active listening that allows you to both lead yourself and others. And it’s very hard, but it can be cultivated. Anyone can cultivate it, but it’s very hard if you’re an execution oriented person to really,

CS:

Yeah. You wanna move to fixing instead of understanding. Absolutely.

SHP:

Always. We do. Right. And then finally, it’s the mindset of grit and resilience. And that is a growth mindset as well as a stress mindset. And it’s also most important, and I think of this as so important that it’s a circle that surrounds the grit triad is the mindset of grounded optimism. And that is the Stockdale paradox. I tell his story in the book. It’s ultimately never, ever losing faith that you will ultimately prevail in the end balanced with the brutal realities that you face in the present. And that must be present in order to be able to live with Britain’s resilience.

CS:

That’s fascinating. I love the grounded optimism surrounding the entire thing. Like I think for the people listening to like, just ask yourself that, think about any situation where you’ve been able to personally exhibit grit. Right. This kind of dogged determination in the face of something. What was the word? Okay. So when you think about that, if you’re, you’re able to stay in it, you do. It’s this duality of holding the tension between I believe this will work out and it sucks right now. Yes. You know, that’s kind of the, without it, if you lose that grounded optimism you give up. Right? Yeah. This is where people bail. Yes. They quit, they just shut down. Like they lose their ability to sustain the forward momentum. And I think if you’re overly optimistic, like it’s not grounded optimism, it’s kind of Pollyanna optimism, <laugh>, you know?

SHP:

Exactly. That’s

CS:

Right. Then you don’t have, you can’t tolerate the, the dissonance between the reality of it currently sucks. So there’s something about that that tethers the two ideas together. Yes. Yeah. I really love that. So

SHP:

Important because it, it really is this, it is a dance a bit and, and really the strength of it comes from experience, but it also comes from the decision. And I think the most exciting thing about mindset is that it is always a decision that each one of us makes. We have

CS:

Complete over and over again. Yes.

SHP:

Right. Yes. But it’s our, it’s our decision. We have to remind ourselves, I get the choice in this moment to decide that doesn’t mean

CS:

It’s, it’s very vitor frankl, like, right. That that’s the

SHP:

Absolutely,

CS:

Yes. That’s the one thing we probably always have control over is exactly the, that what we do with that little space between stimulus and response. Exactly. Yes. So I’m curious about what, when I, I really thought it was important, and I had a question written down for you about so many of the women who listen to this are very high achieving. They’re like, they’ll take the hill, run through the wall, like whatever has to happen. But they also hit those moments of exhaustion or self-doubt or, you know, like when you’re in a marathon. Yes. How do you keep grit sustainable in a way that doesn’t become relentless? Like where is that edge?

SHP:

I’m so glad that you asked that. One of them, if I were to go back and write the grit factor today, uh, and this came out during covid, so it was such an interesting, somewhat unfortunate time, but also perfect mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because at the time, we needed it today. But the piece that I would have included that I did not, is that grit is not a sustainable operating mode. And if you are in that place that sustains stress, you know, stress can be a performance enhancer, but not if it’s continuous. And so making sure that you build into your day, into your week and into your year periods of rest is critical. I mean, it’s critical for your com form, for your ability to perform at the highest levels. And I think so many of us push through for so long that we get to the point of near collapse or actual collapse or just not being able to keep

CS:

Break down. Yeah. You, you hear from a lot of people who say, I can’t, I’m sure you hear the same thing I do in this. Like, oh, you just don’t understand. I just can’t, I can’t, like this is an issue with a child. This is a company that’s mine. This is, you know, there’s lots of times where people will tell you, I just can’t have. Yes. What do you say to them?

SHP:

I understand. And I have been there as well and I am often still there. And I would challenge myself and I would challenge each of those people to, to, to redefine maybe what it is that they can or can’t do. And in the sense that it doesn’t mean that you have to take, you know, have a two hour run in the middle of the work week. That’s not what we’re saying at all. But if you can take literally 10 minutes, and I promise you, you can do that. Even if you have an infant, you can leave an infant in the crib for 10 minutes. I promise you it will be okay. <laugh>. And once you’ve moved through that phase, you’ll realize how, how over worried we are the time mm-hmm <affirmative>. And go for a walk or be quiet or be in that place that is truly rejuvenating for you. It’s not gonna fix everything immediately. But over time, I really, I think that the science supports us as well that that will accrue, that that will be a point of strength for you so that you can come back stronger. And I think that’s the key. You’re going to come back stronger when you give yourself a time to rest. You have to do it. It’s a non-negotiable and you, you need to make it a non-negotiable.

CS:

I think making it a non-negotiable is really the critical thing. We can tell ourselves stories about what will happen. Yes. You know, how and why we can’t. And here’s the tragic thing that will happen if I take my eye off this ball for 10 minutes Right. Or an hour or whatever. Yes. And often our imaginations are worse than the reality. I mean, I think that’s been my experience for sure. I do think I talk a lot with our audience about foundational practices. Yes. And what is the collection, small collection of practices that keep you healthy, whole and human. You know? Right. We all know what they are. They’re probably a little bit different for each of us, but there’s some core principles, right. Sleep. Yes. Like movement time outside. Like there’s things that I think actually time alone where no one needs anything from you is a foundational practice for most of us.

CS:

Absolutely. And where you get that time and how much of it you can get and how compromised or fully expressed it is, will vary through seasons. Yes. But coming back to that as like a kind of lifeline that just has to have some drumbeat of support, I think is true all the time. Like no matter how extensive the crisis is that you might be in, and look, we have people navigating significant crises listening to this today. I’m sure we have people who are kind of in the middle, just like, this is normal life and we have people who are riding high and like they got all kinds of time for recovery. It matters in all of those times. Right. And, and the ability to come back with persistence and grit and, and some semblance of like access to your full brain is probably gonna be a lot higher if you take those times. I’m, I’m, I’m so glad to hear you say that. ‘Cause honestly, Shannon, I think people could read your profile and think like, this woman’s gonna be like, you know, just pedal to the metal a hundred percent of the time. And, and I, I have found you today to be very balanced in your perspective and it’s really like hard earned wisdom that you’ve lived out in. It sounds like a lot of different chapters of life.

SHP:

It definitely is harder earned and you know that very well also, uh, from your experience, and I’m sure most of your listeners do. But, but it is, it is important. And I think if I could do something different looking back, and I think probably most of us would maybe say this, I would love to have had some of this wisdom earlier and yet some of the wisdom came because of that experience as well.

CS:

That’s so, that’s right. That’s right. We have to do it wrong sometimes to know what is right. Looks like. Like you have to have the contrast to really see it. And I think for so many of us who listen to this podcast in particular, our parents, and when we think about the lessons we wanna impart to our children, you know, I grew up probably much like you, with very high standards and expectations. I pushed myself really hard. I achieved a lot because of that. And I have found that I’ve almost like, I’ve really almost overcorrected that within my own children because I recognize that like that wasn’t the answer. Right. The answer wasn’t push, push, push at all costs. Yes. What, you mentioned that you’re doing some work that’s with young people. What is the kind of needle you’re threading around messaging with them?

SHP:

Gosh, I mean, it’s so complicated in the world with young people and young adults. Right now I have two children myself who are 12 and 15, so they’re kind of <laugh> in the right, in the midst of it. In the

CS:

Thick of it. Yep.

SHP:

In the thick of it. And as I talk to other schools, and we’re actually in the middle of developing a school in our community as well, <laugh>, which is, which is all kinds of challenges in and of itself. It is a balance of all, uh, I guess in the midst of all of the noise that we’re hearing, there’s so much noise around education and around the psychology of kids. And, and, and I think for me, a lot of it has come back to like, listen to yourself. Because I think, I think for most of us, if you were paying attention, cell phones were never a good idea for kids. Right. <laugh>. So, so go back to that, that innate wisdom for yourself that, that you might not have listened to early on and give it more credit than, than you did. Be careful about the things that come out as these flashes in the pan because there are industrial complexes around every single thing that exists in our society.

SHP:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Which includes education. So if there’s a flash in the pan, it’s gonna be the most important thing. It’s gonna cost a lot of money and it’s gonna change everything. But at the end of the day, kids need to read, they need to read real books, they need to write and they need to write by hand. They need to not be on screens very much. They need to be outside, they need to be moving their bodies. Uh, and those are all of those things that are basic to help and thriving for a, uh, for a child in addition to having adults outside of their family who are really invested in them. Right. And I think there is a lot of work around having this one adult at least mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that is often found in a faith community if you happen to be part of something like that. Or there may be another activity that you’re part of where, where that can be

CS:

A coach or something. Mm-hmm.

SHP:

Like that. Exactly. A coach or a teacher could also be part of that. So we’re working in all of those dimensions, looking at some of the challenges that kids are facing in terms of communication, again, because of screens in, in many cases and because of some of the challenges they’re facing, with mental illness. And so the grit factor six week program for high school and for college students, that is meant to be facilitated. It’s designed for even a low skill facilitator to manage. And they will be looking at the books, the grit factor, but it’s really grounded in communication in small groups on one-to-one and in the larger groups. So that we’re building those skills and that capacity at the end of the day, like relationships with each other are critical to our, our, our resilience and our thriving and our satisfaction in life.

CS:

Absolutely. Yeah. And I couldn’t agree. My kids are 14, 17, and 20 and I think, you know, we’re living in that same sort of era of, uh, everybody rushed in with technology because we thought we had to. And then when you look at it like, if you could go back and do it differently, what would you do differently? So many things. So many things. But one of the pieces of collateral damage I don’t think we saw coming was the impact on interpersonal relationships and communication. Yes, that’s right. And their inability to, and I think also deep work, deep reflection. Yes, yes. Pondering is just a, a, you know, it’s hard to be sort of self-examining when it’s so easy to numb out with constant stimulation. So for us too, for adults as well, but certainly for our kids with their formative brains, it’s a, um, I like that you have a kind of counter approach that you’re surfacing. Well, I think so many people say like, well what can I do? What can I do about it? Like, this ship has sailed and, and you found something to do about it in a really meaningful way, which is

SHP:

Great. It has not sailed. It has never sailed. This is true in all aspects of our life, that it is never too late. It is harder the later that you start or the later that you intervene, but it has never sailed. And it is so important that you do whatever you can in the midst of that, whether it’s for your kids. Absolutely. A hundred percent. They only have one time to be a kid. It’s never too late. And for our own lives and contribution, it is never too late. And I think that’s an important reminder as well.

CS:

Amazing. Well I am so glad that we had the opportunity to connect on this. This work is, um, exceptional. I wanna make sure everyone has access to the book, which is the Grit Factor, which we will link in the show notes as well as to learn more about your work at the Grit Institute. Do you wanna give us the URL verbally just in case that’s easier for them? Yeah,

SHP:

Absolutely. It’s just the grit institute.com and I’m also on Instagram and LinkedIn.

CS:

Perfect. Well thank you so much again today for being here. It has been an absolute pleasure,

SHP:

Cheryl. Thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed it.

CS:

Alright. Thank you for tuning in today. I hope you loved the interview. As much as I loved having the conversation, Shannon really is exceptional and I think we’re so aligned on so many of her ideas. I loved that concept of grounded optimism that we got into when she was talking about the grit triad. So I hope that you will follow your curiosity. If you’re interested in checking out her book, we have it linked in the show notes for you. And also if you are interested, particularly if you’re in an organization that might benefit from the leadership training that she was referencing, um, I know a lot of you listeners work in companies of all sizes who might really benefit from that. Please go check out the Grit Institute as well. And if you are new to the Brilliant Balance Podcast, thank you for tuning in today. You can connect with me on Instagram at See School, Nikki, let me know what you thought of this or drop a comment or a review about this podcast wherever you are listening today. That’s all for today, my friends. Till next time, let’s be brilliant.