Episode #380 – When Success Hides Struggle: Dr. Judith Joseph on High-Functioning Depression

I am Cherylanne Skolnicki, and this is Brilliant Balance, the show for working women who are ready to shine. Each week I bring you ideas, inspiration, and insight on balance business and getting it all done gracefully. You ready? Let’s be brilliant.

This is episode #380 of the Brilliant Balance Podcast When Success Hides Struggle, Dr. Judith Joseph on high functioning Depression. Well, I am delighted to introduce you to Dr. Judith today, although it is entirely possible that you may have crossed paths with her or her work already. Dr. Judith is a board certified psychiatrist and a researcher who specializes in mental health and trauma, and she has built an enormous social media following based on her expertise in the mental health arena. She has a forthcoming book on high functioning depression that will be the focus of our discussion today. And I think what many high achieving women sort of know in their bones, Dr. Judith and her research team have backed up with science, namely that things like depression and anxiety can sort of hide out behind a veneer of success, making them almost un diagnoseable using traditional means like the DSM five.

So, Dr. Judith’s perspective on this is really, really intriguing. I think you’re gonna potentially see yourself in these descriptions, and I think you’re gonna love her approach. Her engaging style has really made her a media darling. She has been everywhere from the Drew Barrymore show to the Mel Robbins podcast, from Oprah to literally the White House. So I am so excited to bring her to Brilliant Balance today. Dr. Judith is the chair of the Women in Medicine Initiative at Columbia University. She is a clinical assistant professor in Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at NYU and Chief Investigator at Manhattan Behavioral Medicine, which is New York City’s premier clinical research site. And in addition to being a notable public speaker at these prestigious institutions, she’s a sought after on air expert. And again, she’s been featured everywhere from Good Morning America to the Today Show, Oprah Daily. She has written for or been quoted in the New York Times, the Washington Post, Forbes, and on and on.

So her perspective, you’ll hear really engaging her angle on this particular issue, I think is so relevant for the listenership of the Brilliant Balance podcast. I did this in front of a bit of a studio audience, if you will. We had some of my clients in bold who were able to listen in on the recording of this interview and then also be a part of a q and a with Dr. Judith afterwards. Something that we sometimes do with podcast guests and our bold community. And I have to say that while I loved the recorded interview and Dr. Judith was fantastic, she was positively delightful in sort of the, after the show, the ability to just chill with this group of women and really speak from her own perspective and then to answer some questions from them. It was really just such a treat to spend that time with her. So I don’t wanna give you any more delay. Before you get to dig into this interview, please meet Dr. Judith Joseph.

 

Cherylanne Skolnicki:

So welcome Dr. Judith. We are truly delighted to have you here today.

Dr. Judith Joseph:

Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

CS:

Well, one of the questions I love to start with is just a little context on what you’ve been up to today. It helps people connect with, you know, where we fit into the flow of your life. So can you share a little bit about what’s been on the calendar?

JJ:

Yes. I mean, this morning I saw a bunch of patients and I run a research lab, so I would conduct clinical studies. And my longest visit today was to a patient in postpartum. So we’re doing a new postpartum depression study looking at, uh, psilocybin like medication. So it’s like a psychedelic mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then I saw private patients, and these are just traditional patients I see in therapy and for medication management mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then I, you know, definitely do a bit of content creation. So I made sure that I was checking on my social media, responding to comments, um, on my latest post. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So that’s a bit about me. <laugh>.

CS:

Hopefully you get some downtime later today. Right. I mean, we’re doing this mid-afternoon, hopefully by this evening you get a little bit of downtime for yourself.

JJ:

Yes. Yeah. Yes,

CS:

For sure. Practicing what we preach. Exactly. So, I would love to hear a little bit about your background. And I’ve, I’ve done my research, I know a lot about it, but I’d love for you to share how you found your way to psychiatry, um, as a field, especially since you didn’t start there. I found that your undergraduate degree was fascinating and kind. I’d love to hear the leap.

JJ:

Yeah, I mean, when I went to medical school at Columbia, I never thought I would be a psychiatrist. I went to study the brain. I did neuroscience research when I was an undergrad at Duke, and I thought I was gonna be like a neurosurgeon or a neurologist. And then when I was in the operating room, I really fell in love with doing the procedure. So I ended up being an anesthesiologist as a resident after graduating medical school. But that whole field I found to be very isolating. You’re by yourself behind the drapes, taking care of patients, but you’re not really working part of a team. Like the surgeons have their team, the anesthesiologists on their own. Yes. And at the time when I did anesthesiology, it was like the highest paying field in medicine. It was very prestigious, but I wasn’t feeling fulfilled.

JJ:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I remembered that when I was a medical student, I did a rotation in South Africa where I was doing trauma-focused therapy with orphans who had lost their parents to HIV and they were on their own and we were doing these really intensive therapies with them. And I just felt so felt doing that work. But from a traditional Caribbean, American household, psychiatry wasn’t considered like the real doctor. Right. Whereas an anesthesiologist was like a real doctor. You’re like mm-hmm <affirmative>. You’re working with Neil here in the operating room. So I didn’t wanna disappoint my family, but I eventually did end up leaving the anesthesiologist all, uh, that field because it just wasn’t fulfilling for me. I didn’t have a relationship with my patients. You put them to sleep, but when they wake up, they won’t remember you.

CS:

Right. <laugh>. Right.

JJ:

Whereas, uh, psychiatry, I work with children, teens, adults, I can, some of my patients I’ve known for years to see them throughout different life stages. So you really get connected. Well, I do to my, the families that I work with, and my patients. And I feel as if I’m making a difference. And now more than ever, psychiatry is in such high demand. When I was in medical school, it wasn’t that popular. And now it is. Everyone wants to be a,

CS:

You can’t get into a C one. Yeah. Wait list or insane. Right. Yeah, there’s, so tell me this, what did it take to start to do that pivot? How much, like what was the timeline to reeducate yourself after anesthesiology to come into psychiatry?

JJ:

So when you become, um, a medical student, you, you’re committed to four years mm-hmm <affirmative>. Of medical training. So you get to rotate through like dermatology, surgery, internal medicine, psychiatry, you do all of it. ’cause they wanna make sure you are well rounded so that you make the best decision possible when you commit to the residency program. So residency is when you’re done with medical school after you graduate and you commit to four to seven years. Some residencies are long like sub like specializing in a field. So I did two years of anesthesiology out of a four year program. And then I decided, okay, let me see if I can find a spot in a psychiatry program so I don’t have to wait and do the match all over again. And I ended up finding a spot at Columbia, the same place where I was doing my anesthesia. I already

CS:

Were. Yes.

JJ:

I just switched into that. And it was very different because you learn a bit of psychiatry in your medical school, but, uh, if you didn’t always focus on psychiatry, then you probably didn’t spend most of your fourth year of medical school focusing on that elective mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so it was really like a chance for me to reeducate myself about mental health issues. Yeah. In psychiatry, you learn about medications for just about everything. Like a DH, ADHD meds, schizophrenia meds, depression meds, bipolar meds. Yes. But you also learn a lot of different types of therapies. So you learn cognitive behavioral therapy, psychoanalytic therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy, how to do therapy with children, how to do therapy with, you know, severely mentally ill people. So it’s like you learn so much in like four years mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then you can do additional training if you want. And I did an additional two years as a child because in psychiatry you learn the adult brain first and then you learn the child brain. Mm-hmm. So, you know, you can learn forever if you wanna see. You can never be in the real world <laugh>.

CS:

Yes, yes, yes. But, and I think it’s tempting when you get into these fields, especially the fields that are evolving so rapidly that it’s tempting and you found your way ultimately to be especially interested in depression. And this is obviously we’ve set it up that we’re gonna talk about your forthcoming book. So I’m curious, you completed this first of its kind study on depression, specifically high functioning depression. And how did you get there? Like how long were you practicing psychiatry before that became an itch that you really wanted to depress into?

JJ:

So I have had my lab since 2018. Okay. But really during 2020 when I was, um, looking at patients who in, you know, the major depressive disorder studies, they didn’t meet criteria for major depressive disorder. Because according to the DSM five, which is like the Bible psychiatry, you have to have these symptoms of depression, but you also have to have a lack of functioning and, and or, you know, significant distress. The people who are high functioning, they don’t necessarily identify their emotions, they push it down, they really, you know, hide it under a mask of productivity. And they’re actually over functioning. They’re not lacking functioning because they cope with their stress by working, by staying busy, by over functioning, by being the rock, by being,

CS:

Yeah, I know nothing about this. Right. <laugh>, I have zero experience with this pattern, <laugh>.

JJ:

And so I was seeing these people who didn’t meet criteria, but they were over functioning. And, I myself could identify with it too, because I was like sitting at my desk in 2020 giving a talk to this large, uh, group of healthcare professionals online who are really afraid of the pandemic and stressed and really going through a lot emotionally. And I found myself halfway through the talk being like, oh my gosh, I think I’m depressed. You know, like, how did I not, how did I not see this? How did

CS:

I don’t know? Right.

JJ:

I’m like a <inaudible>, a psychiatrist. And I didn’t even know it snuck up on me. So I wondered how many other people were like me, who, you know, were a wife, a mother, a boss, a friend, taking care of everyone else, but just really neglecting their own lives, their own struggles, and to show up for others to be productive. Yes. So I decided to make a video about what I was seeing in my lab and in my life, and put it on social media and it went viral. Like 20 million people around the world. Like, that’s me. Like there was an entrepreneur who was like, oh, that’s me. I’m always taking care of my wife, my kids. I’m always busy working by myself. There’s a single mom who was like, that’s me. Like, I have three kids at home and they all depend on me. I can’t slow down.

JJ:

I am busy too. Right. A teacher who is like, you know, that’s me. Like, I take care of the students after school and I don’t, you know, have any fun on my own. Or the healthcare professional who’s like, listen, we can’t slow down. The world needs us. You know, we have to be there. We have to show up. So I found all these different people who are identifying with this, hiding their struggles under a mask of productivity. And I thought, let me try to quantify this. So let me see if I can enroll patients into a study to see what the risk factors were. High function depression is not yet recognized. It’s not a a, a recognized diagnosis, but I wanted to see if there was this prototype of people who had symptoms of depression, but instead of lacking functioning, they cope by over

CS:

Function, over functioning. Yes.

JJ:

Eventually it’ll be, it’ll become an, a major depressive disorder where they stop functioning or it becomes like a physical health issue where they,

CS:

It’s a road to burnout for sure.

JJ:

Or burnout. Yeah. Or substance abuse. Right. Yeah. Overdrinking or overuse of online tech to soothe. So, um, I, I knew I was onto something when all these millions of people were like, that’s me. How did you know? Yes. Do you have a camera in my house? <laugh>.

CS:

And, and I think it’s, it reminds me so much of like, I think we crave vocabulary like language to help us describe something that we know is true. And so many of us are related. When Brene Brown came on the scene and started talking about shame and vulnerability, it was like, it put language around something that we didn’t have a way to describe. And I suspect you’re getting a lot of those comparisons right now of like, oh, this is language that describes a collection of behaviors that have a propensity to over-function, but using that as a coping mechanism to really mask something that’s underneath. So, you know, on the outside everything looks great, but inside we’re sort of suffering or crumbling. And it’s just such a precise point that you’ve been able to put on this pattern.

JJ:

Yeah. Whenever I give a talk, ’cause I do a lot of speaking engagements for corporations and for, you know, women’s groups and, um, mental health organizations. Whenever I say how many people in here have ever felt empty or restless when they were sitting still doing nothing. And it’s like, there’s not one hand that’s not raised because we are busy ourselves like we are in this world where it’s hustle, move, do, see hair. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, like sleeping is not respected <laugh>. Yeah. In fact, you know, people brag about how little they slept, you know, they brag about how many things they can do. So, you know, we have to slow down and feel the fields. Yes. We may start to feel sad and that’s okay, but I think there’s a real fear of slowing down and feeling because people worry that what if I stop and suddenly break down? But it’s the opposite. If you don’t stop, you’ll break down, then

CS:

You break down. Yes. So you’ve covered some of the signs, some of the symptoms or patterns of behavior that we can sort of be on the lookout for. And you call this high functioning depression, that’s the name that you’ve given to it. So, um, are there any that we’ve missed that you think are particularly important to underline around the signs or signals?

JJ:

Yes, absolutely. There’s something called anhedonia. It’s a research term that I see all the time in the literature, but most people have never heard of it. Right? Yeah. The Ann is the lack of hood is the pleasure and ONA is like this symptom. And people don’t realize that, you know, feeling dull and muted, that that is actually a symptom of possibly depression or another condition. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, you know, it’s, it sounds innocuous. It sounds like, oh, it’s, it’s not like glaring, but it can lead to other things. It can lead to overuse of substances, it can lead to depression, it can lead to people shutting down, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think most importantly, it leads to you not finding joy in life. Yes. You know, not engaging with the people and the things that you love the most. And it’s like a missed opportunity for pleasure. And, um, so I think knowing what it is is really powerful because like you said, when people have a name for their experiences, they feel as if they’re calm. Like they control.

CS:

Yes. They

JJ:

Feel Yeah. They’re less afraid. It’s called labeling. If you name the feeling they need to like, oh, at least I know what it is.

CS:

Yeah. And maybe it moves you back to the agency. Like, maybe if I know what this is, there’s something I can do about it. Yes. You know,

CS:

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CS:

So start your journey to prosper today. Visit mackey advisors.com/brilliant balance and book your consultation. Okay. Balance builders. Any chance you’re feeling a little overwhelmed by your overloaded schedule. I know I’ve been there. In fact, it’s why I created 14 days of calendar control. This is my step-by-step program where I share my personal system and set of tools to help you transform your chaotic weeks into easy breezy ones. Okay, maybe not easy breezy, but at least edited and organized. Listen, there’s training templates and tools in there to help you get things under control quickly. Say goodbye to constant conflicts and chronic rushing and say hello to calendar control curiosity. Head to brilliant balance.com/calendar for instant access. That’s brilliant. balance.com/calendar. Now, back to the show, anhedonia is an interesting concept. And the idea that I’ve asked women sometimes who can come in saying, I’m so busy, right?

CS:

Oh my God, I’m so busy. I’m like, are you bored? And they’ll say, no, off, I am way too busy to be bored. But the more they think about it, they’re like, you know, I am a little bored. Like, and I think it’s maybe another name for this was a better name, your name, that word is more specific because they don’t describe it as boredom, but they’re, it’s blah. Like, I’m so sick of doing the same stuff. It just isn’t exciting anymore. What are your hobbies and passions? I have no idea. You know, that rhythm is gonna be very familiar to our listeners for sure, because I hear it so much in initial conversations with people. And so when we’re, when we have that collection of, I’ll call them symptoms that you were just describing, those behavior patterns are starting to show up, right?

CS:

You don’t really stop to enjoy your wins because it’s like, well, there’s so much to do, you can’t sit still and just chill. Right? You have to be constantly active. There’s this kind of loss of interest in things. Are there things we can do? I was, uh, checking out your five vs in the framework. Are there any of these that you wanna share? And I definitely, we want people to get the book right when it comes out and really dive into this. But at a high level, do you wanna talk a little bit about that framework?

JJ:

Yeah. So like the five Vs basically are based on positive psychology and cultural psychiatry have traveled to over 30 countries learning about the way that different cultures approach happiness and that idea of joy. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And the first is validation. So many times we just push aside how we feel. We don’t acknowledge it. Many times we don’t even have a name for how we feel. We may call it tired, but we’re really having anhedonia, right? Yes. Language. We validate how you feel because acknowledging how you feel allows you to do something about it. Number two is venting. So get it out. You know, you may not have anyone to talk to that you trust in your circle, so write about it in a journal or say it out loud when you look in the mirror or sing it, you know? Yeah. For me, I vent when I’m going through something. I’d like to make a little meme on social media and share it with my community, but that’s my way of expressing it.

JJ:

Um, some of my clients who are artists, they’ll sing or they’ll draw. They’re, they’ll paint to vent their expressions. And the third is values. Like what actually brings your life meaning and purpose at the end of the day. You know, when you’re on your deathbed, what are you gonna care about? Are you gonna care about getting that purse that you really wanted? Or are you gonna care about having five more minutes with your loved ones? Right. What are the causes that you’re passionate about that feed your soul? And then the fourth is vital. So this is the annoying part, right? <laugh>, like, it’s like eating well, sleeping well, moving your body, drinking

CS:

The water,

JJ:

But it’s really important. Yes. Drinking water. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Because what we eat really nourishes our brain. There’s a whole field called nutritional psychiatry, and there are studies outta Harvard that show that if you eat certain foods, you have better brain health, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You’re getting certain types of movement, you have lower stress. And then the other thing I include in vitals is experience with technology. Your relationship with technology. Spending too much time on phones, on devices, and the relationships in your life. Who are the people in your life that are draining you of your life source? Limit that exposure and pour into the ones that actually support you. And then the last V is vision. So like, how do we celebrate our wins? How do we put things on the schedule in the future to move us forward? Yeah. Versus stuck in the past. And for me, my small wins are if I get my daughter to school on time, <laugh>, because her school is so strict, if you’re one minute late, you have to wait in line.

CS:

Oh gosh. <laugh>, you get the

JJ:

Walk of shame. So like, you know, celebrate the small ones as well as the big ones. So like, if I get her to school on time, I’ll sit and drink my coffee, you know, I’ll really enjoy the experience. I’ll pat myself on the back if I apply for a study and I don’t get it and another lab gets it, I celebrate the fact that I try, you know, like, so it’s not just about the, the the technical wins, it’s about the win of like overcoming affair or of an anxiety. Yes.

CS:

Yes. We, we had somebody in a group call earlier today, celebrate the win of turning down an opportunity, right. Saying no to something in order to protect and hold space. And I thought that was so great and countercultural to celebrate the win of letting one go that is not for you instead of getting every single one. Right. So, these, the signs of high functioning depression and these five vs. The framework to sort of work your way through it is all something that you’re sharing in this book. The book comes out in the spring, but it’s available for pre-order. So where is the best place for listeners to find it before I forget.

JJ:

So they can find it on Amazon, they can find it everywhere that books are sold. And Barnes and Noble, all the major outlets for finding books. And you can find out on my website Dr. Judith Joseph on my socials, Dr. Judith Joseph. So you could find the link to order there.

CS:

Great. So you’re searching for high functioning, that’s the title of the book and in any of the places that Dr. Judith just mentioned. So I am curious if there is any specific perspective that you would put on this for this particular audience. I shared with you that we, you know, we have a lot of women who listen to the show who are extremely accomplished professionally. They have high complexity lives personally, right? Often raising children, managing families at the same time. Are there any particular nuggets or lenses on this that you would put for that audience specifically?

JJ:

I mean, for these high functioning individuals, they very rarely ask for help. They feel like they’re burdening others when they ask for help, they often, you know, I think invalidate themselves or gaslight themselves mm-hmm <affirmative>. They tell themselves it’s not so bad. But also there’s this interpersonal element that’s underlooked mm-hmm <affirmative>. Where they tend to find themselves in relationships with people who take more, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like they’re takers and they don’t really give back. So I think really examining your self-worth and thinking about your past trauma, like where is this lack of feeling as if you’re worthy coming from where is this, this, try to uncover this, this moment in your life where you stopped thinking that you were worthy of slowing down. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Try to get that self-reflection in there because I think that could be a powerful turning point for you.

CS:

Yes, for sure. So the source of that behavior, like when we were talking earlier about the pattern of over-functioning, I know it’s highly relatable for me. I know it’s highly relatable for I’m sure for a lot of our listeners and that belief that if not me, then who, right? If I’m not gonna handle all of this and keep going, it’s a little bit like the world is gonna fall apart around me. And so I do love what you’re saying about examining the source of that. Like where did that belief originate and how is it serving you? Because I do think we get a lot of, we feel proud, we feel a sense of accomplishment when we’ve handled a lot of things. But then what is it costing you, right? Because hiding behind this veil of everything looks great on the outside and we do not feel so great on the inside, there’s a dissonance created by that that’s hard to tolerate over time. So it feels like the five vs are like a way to reconcile it, to bring the outside in alignment with the inside.

JJ:

Yeah. It’s a way to tell yourself you’re human again. <laugh>. Yes. You’re like, you’re human, you know, to

CS:

Potter your human nature. Yes.

JJ:

Yeah. Sometimes I have mothers in my office and it’s like, they’re so busy chasing everyone else. They like to forget that they’re human too. Like you were a person, you know, before this kid came along, you were a person before you were partnered.

CS:

Yes.

JJ:

They just end up in my office and they’re just like, I forgot who I was. And I’m like, let’s get back to the five E’s. We’ll help you get back to who you are. We’ll figure out what gave you that spark at one point in your life. Mm-hmm. You can’t get it back, but if you’re busying yourself and you’re numbing yourself, you’re not gonna be able to sit still long enough to even figure out who you are again. Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I think, you know, that is very validating for them to hear that. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. They vent to me. We come back to their values, we work on their vitals, their body again, and then we plan for them in the future. It’s so easy to remember and you can pick on one of them, the one or two of them to work on every day, but it really gets you back into finding yourself again.

JJ:

Yes. And I talk about the science of your happiness, right? Um, I have this lab like the Happiness Lab, where people come in and they learn about what is it that makes them happy because there are all these, you know, programs out there, but we have, you have to tailor it to yourself because your version of what your happiness is is gonna be different than someone else’s. But if you don’t even know what makes you truly happy and you’re looking at someone else’s and you’ll never be happy ’cause you don’t even know yourself. Right? So we try to get people to know themselves again, to find out what the science of their individual happiness is.

CS:

Yes. We’ve been talking a lot about self-awareness within this community of women that the cultural narratives that are fed to us about what we are going to want and what we should do in what order. I think a lot of us dutifully followed those, um, maybe off a cliff, and then you end up in midlife saying like, I’m not even sure I know who I am or what I want. So that, that self-awareness is the first step, sort of helps you link up all of your priorities and time around that. And it’s something you seem to do particularly well. I, I shared with the listeners earlier that you’re clearly multi-passionate, you have your fingers in a lot of different things. And so do you have any practical advice that you would leave us with on how you’re managing so many different priorities in this chapter?

JJ:

Well, for me, my family comes first. So I really think about what it is I want to leave behind as a legacy. So I put my family first. If anything is getting in the way of that, then I’m going to prioritize my family over that, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. For others, it could be something else. It could be their causes, it could be their faith. But for me that comes first because I find that I’m unhappy if I don’t spend enough time with my daughter. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, I get grumpy. I’m like second <laugh>, I needed my connection, you know? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so if you’re busying yourself to the point where you’re not even enjoying those connections with people or the things that you value, then that’s a red flag. That’s, you have to slow down. You have to think about what you’re prioritizing and if you’re making the right choices.

CS:

Yes. Amazing. I think that the notion of alignment that that leads to, allows you to do a lot of different things as long as they’re all kind of aligned with the main idea, right? Like your purpose, the legacy that you’re trying to live, um, when your priorities are lined up with that, things get a lot simpler. Well, thank you so much for the time that you’ve shared with us today. I know that the listeners are really going to identify with this model, I’m sure of it. So at Dr. Judith’s website, which we’ll link in the show notes, dr judith joseph.com, there is a like an assessment that you can take to I to kind of go through, do you ident, does this label something that makes sense for you to do, you identify or kind of meet the criteria? And then the book again is coming out in the spring, but available for pre-order now. So thank you so much for being with us and our audience. You are delightful.

JJ:

Thank you so much for having me. It was so nice to talk with you today. And yes, take the assessments, sign up for my newsletter, you get weekly tips and follow me for more. And I hope you enjoy the book.

CS:

Excellent. Well thank you for tuning in today. I hope that you enjoyed that interview. It was eye-opening. I know for me, for the women in bold who were able to listen in and then I hope for you as well. And I really hope that you do check out her book or get it on pre-order. And again, you can do that at her website, which I’ve linked in the show notes. If you are new to the Brilliant Balance Community and this is the episode that introduced you to what we’re up to over here, welcome. Um, I would love for you to take a second to subscribe to the show. It’s the best way to never miss an episode. Um, you can do that wherever you listen to podcasts. And of course I would love for you to check out the things that we’re up to inside of Brilliant Balance. And you can do that at my website, brilliant balance.com. It’s kind of your portal to all the things that we’re up to from day to day. So that’s it for today, my friends. Till next time, go be brilliant.